Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen
A "brick-wall" DIY genealogy podcast that features your questions and Kathleen Brandt's answers. She wants your stories, questions, and “brick walls”. But be ready to add to your "to-do" list. As Kathleen always says, this is a Do it yourself (DIY) genealogy podcast. “I'll show you where the shovel is, but I'm not digging up your family.”
Maybe, you have no idea where to start searching for an ancestor. Or, perhaps you want to know more about your family folklore. Host Kathleen has 20 years in the industry and is the founder of a3genealogy. She's able to dispense genealogy research advice and encouragement in understandable terms that won't get you lost in genealogy jargon. Along with her husband and co-host, John, she helps you accomplish "do-it-yourself" research goals, learn some history, and have a bit of fun along the way. Light-hearted and full of detailed info, Hittin' the Bricks is your solution for your brick-wall research problems.
Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen
Unraveling Forensic Genealogy With Juli Whittaker
Unlock the secrets of forensic genealogy in this episode of Hittin’ the Bricks with Kathleen!
Genealogist Julie Whittaker specializes in military repatriation, mineral rights, and the legal complexities that shape this growing field.
Whether you're curious about how forensic genealogy solves cold cases, supports legal claims, or connects families to long-lost ancestors, Julie shares real-world insights from her work with attorneys, specialized projects, and beyond.
Thinking about becoming a forensic genealogist or just want to understand what it really takes?
This episode offers expert tips, powerful stories, and a look behind the scenes of one of genealogy’s most fascinating careers.
Here are some helpful links.
- Website for Julie: https://genealogysafari.com/
- The Council for the Advancement of Forensic Genealogy (CAFG) https://www.forensicgenealogists.org/
- Defense POW/MIA Accounting Agency: https://www.dpaa.mil/
If you have genealogical questions for Kathleen, drop us a line at hittinthebricks@gmail.com
Be sure to bookmark linktr.ee/hittinthebricks for your one stop access to Kathleen Brandt, the host of Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen. And, visit us on YouTube: Off the Wall with Kathleen John and Chewey video recorded specials.
Hittin' the Bricks is produced through the not-for-profit, 501c3 TracingAncestors.org.
Ladies and gentlemen from the depths of flyover country in the heartland of America, the Kansas City on the other side of the mighty Moe, welcome to Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen, the do-it-yourself genealogy podcast that features your questions and her answers. I am John, your humble hubby host, and today we'll be talking to Julie Whitaker from Genealogy Safari. There's a lot to cover, so let's start hitting the bricks. I'm going to do it. If you don't say anything, Kathleen, I'm going to do it.
Kathleen:What say hey baby, oh God, just once, just once, you're going to miss it.
John:Hey you need to step up.
Kathleen:You need to get that first word and start talking.
John:Are you going to get the hey baby? You need to step up. You need to get that first word and start talking. Are you going to get the hey baby? We're here with Julie Whitaker, who is a forensic genealogist, and I'm going to be learning how to pronounce multi-syllabic words as well as finding out what forensic genealogy is doing, and Kathleen's going to dig deeper and ask the questions that I don't even know. I should ask Kathleen you know Julie?
Juli Whittiker:yes, I do know, julie. Julie, how did we meet?
Kathleen:Probably through our APG local chapter. Apg Hartman, yeah, and it's a very active chapter in the Kansas City area and it covers most of the Midwest, and so we used to. I don't know, are you still doing lunches now, julie?
Juli Whittiker:They do, it's just I've been so busy Now I haven't been, I you still doing lunches now, julie, they do, it's just I've been so busy Now I haven't been. I'm hoping to go next week, great.
Kathleen:One of the things I learned about Julie through the APG meetings is that she is a forensic genealogist and she owns a company, and Julie is Genealogy Safari right.
Juli Whittiker:Correct. I started out doing family history research, but I was always fascinated by on Facebook. I would see people post about forensic work and I'd never really done it. And then the Council for the Advancement of Forensic Genealogy back in 2012 had their first annual conference in Houston, texas, and someone had posted and I went to register and I was bummed because it was already full and I posted out. Like darn it, I really wanted to go learn more about this. You know how do I get on a wait list? Well then someone emailed me and said, hey, someone canceled. Do you want their spot? And, mind you, it was in two weeks. I said, sure, why not? So I was able to book a hotel room because they had an allotment of rooms with already held. And then I went out to Southwest and was able to get a direct flight right into Houston from Kansas City.
Kathleen:So I went the organization was the Advancement of Forensic Genealogy. Is that the name?
Juli Whittiker:of it, the Council for the Advancement of Forensic Genealogy, or CAFG for short.
Kathleen:Okay, and do you have an active role in that also now, right An officer role I do.
Juli Whittiker:I'm the treasurer on the board. Excellent, I got that role because I'm a CPA and nobody else wants to do the books or the taxes, so and I don't mind doing it.
John:So, julie, you mentioned you're a CPA. What brought you into forensic genealogy? I'm starting to hear. I love research. I love numbers type going on there, which is typically who I find my wife playing with in the sandbox. You know when left to her own devices she's going to gravitate to numbers and genealogy Right.
Juli Whittiker:When I was young, my dad was always into the family history and he was born in Windyville, missouri, down by Lebanon and Buffalo, missouri, and we traipsed through more farms, looking for family cemeteries on those farms and going to the funeral homes where we couldn't find the cemetery because they would always know where it was at. So that's how it started with my love of it. Of course, you know, back then I didn't think I could make a living at something like that and I love numbers. I was good in math and so I became an accountant and a CPA. Well then, unfortunately, he passed unexpectedly in 2010.
Juli Whittiker:And I stopped working to take care of my mom and I was trying to figure what could I do from home, part time, and being a CPA part time at home liability insurance is really really, really high, so I was like, what else could I do? So I started doing family history research because he died in 2010. I did that for two years till I found out about cafg and then I joined and that's where I made the transition over to forensic. It takes a while to get your client base going and word of mouth, but now it's full time for me okay, so help me out here, julie.
Kathleen:Explain to our listeners what is forensic genealogy in general and what part do you work in.
Juli Whittiker:I do multiple, but we'll start with the definition. It's cases that have a legal implication or have something to do with the legal system or the probate courts or something to do that has a legal implication to it. So for me I started off just doing. When I joined CAFG they have a mentoring program and so I started off by doing cases with them that I got paired up with the forensic genealogist that did Navy repatriations and I did another one that was a lawyer and she did mineral rights, so I welcome being able to learn how to do both. Then the attorney has since retired so now she refers all of her lawyer friends to me and so I've gotten my base built up there. And then the person I was mentoring that did the Navy work hired me as a contractor, so I get work from her as well for the Navy.
Kathleen:Okay, so we're going to back up. One of the things you mentioned was the repatriation Right. Tell me what that's about.
Juli Whittiker:So I work on the Navy side but they have a no man left behind policy and with that policy they created the Defense POW MIA Accounting Agency right around 2015, I think it was and with that program it means that if they have an idea of where a serviceman perished, it's not just Navy but that's just the branch I work for. If they have an idea of where a man may have perished and they think that they can reasonably retrieve those remains, then they have a commitment that they need to do that. So while they're looking at the case files of all the eyewitness accounts of the men who lived that last saw that serviceman and determine where he might have been at, while they're trying to determine can they retrieve those remains, the genealogists get hired to build out the family tree looking for DNA relatives that would possibly potentially give a DNA sample to test against remains once they come into the lab to ID him.
Juli Whittiker:I like the way you said that, possibly potentially Well, because you just you just don't know because I call these people you know Because sometimes you have an adoption that can break my line because they're not a blood relative then and so until I call, I don't know. And it's getting harder and harder because people think I'm trying to scam them, but we're not, so they won't answer the call. So we still send the letters in hopes that they'll at least respond to the Navy.
John:That's what forensic genealogy would be. It's more with a legal bent to to it than just family research right, but you have to do family research to find those people.
Juli Whittiker:Yeah right, and I have to know which, because the navy predominantly tests mt dna on the mother's side and y dna on the father's side. So I have to build that chart, I have to type up the narrative, my source, citations proving on people. Those people are in that line to be able to give that type of DNA.
Kathleen:And this is a lot like what we're doing with the Eternal Valor Network on tracing ancestors, and it's what we did with Final Salute, and that is honoring the veterans, especially those who did not have a proper burial.
Kathleen:We have to identify them and then we are finding the families in her case she's working more connected them through dna, whereas in our case we're trying to identify them from the cemeteries or the funeral homes and right, and so we're doing the same kind of work, but a different process. So, julie, in in case, while you're defining forensic genealogy, what are the different kinds of specialties?
Juli Whittiker:There are. I do probate work for attorneys where I'm looking for heirs or potential heirs. I've done mineral rights. I do the Navy repatriations. You can do land easements, quiet title. There's encroachment. I've done mineral rights. I do the Navy repatriations. You can do land easements, quiet title. There's encroachment.
Juli Whittiker:I've done a case recently on that just here in Kansas City. It was a big, big case that I've been working on and then I did a bunch with Purple Hearts back in the day. We were the ones that if someone had lost a medal or a medal was found and they didn't know who the family was, we would help trace the family. We had one for a while where kids were in the foster care program and they were aging out and they had no family. They had no idea who their family was. So we would build a report for them and then the agency would reach out to those family members to see who would help with that child once they aged out. I've done a lot of property work where someone has passed away and no one ever did anything with a title to the property. So you're trying to find the family members.
Kathleen:So in your case, with the property work, are you tracing deeds? Is that what you're doing? How do you prove?
Juli Whittiker:No, I'm actually looking for the living family. It was like, for example, the one I just did. There was two sisters over in the Grandview area that both had passed away and they lived on that land forever. It was their parents' land. They never married, never had children, they both died. Well, the city kept encroaching and taking easements on that property until someone, I don't know who threw up a red flag saying no, you can't keep doing this, you can't just keep taking the property. And so I looked for the living family members on the maternal and the paternal side, so that the attorney could reach out to them regarding how to properly dispose of that property. What they wanted was they wanted the family just to sign it over the city, which if I were them I would, because I know how much it was worth. I saw the documents in the court. I would never just give it to them. You know their goal was to hope that they would just sign it over. That's their battle.
Kathleen:I just identified the people, so that used to be one of the definitions of forensic genealogists. It used to say we worked with legal and we worked with the living people. Versus working for genealogy regular genealogy I should say I don't know. Historical genealogy right with historical genealogy.
Juli Whittiker:We're working with the deceased records well, and the reason I have to be careful, because I don't have a pi license, so I have to have a contract with a government entity or a law, a lawyer, to be able to find living people, or else I have to go back and get the PI license, which I'm trying not to do. So each state's rules are different, so you need to know what your state's rules are regarding that.
Kathleen:As you know, I remember I was a licensed PI for both Missouri and Kansas. I do. Kansas is much easier to get.
Juli Whittiker:Okay, well, that's good to know is much easier to get. Okay, well, that's good to know and much less expensive.
Kathleen:That's even better to know. But anyway, I did do both and for the same reason because you want the databases you're looking for the living. There's certain software we can use that are public databases, so that's part of forensic genealogy. So what does a job look like for you as far as a day-to-day, what are you doing?
Juli Whittiker:Okay, so for starters, I take the cases in the order I get them. I don't usually let people bump because if they've waited so long you know that's not my fault. So I do them in the order I get them. So whether I have a task order from the Navy with 5, 10, 15, 20 names or I get an affidavit probate that I need to do, I do it in the order I get it.
Juli Whittiker:So I start off in the morning, you know, either with a brand new case because I just turned one in before lunch, or, you know, start with the last case I was working on the day before and I continue looking. I have these little manila folders and I have one for per person, per case, and I start writing all over the front of the folder of the family because I don't want to put into my family tree maker until I have a good feel right and to make sure that there's no adoptions in there. That's going to bust my tree open. So I start building it out on paper and then I probably killing trees, but I like to print it out, the screenshots of the images that I find. And then I look people up and I start making phone calls. As far as the Navy work goes, if it's an affidavit, once in a blue moon I'll get the okay to make contact with the people, but usually the attorney or their law clerks will make the phone calls on those.
John:You're not necessarily doing direct contact with people. You're doing the research behind and then passing it on to the Navy to no navy, I make contact okay and when I first started I couldn't.
Juli Whittiker:It wasn't till I got certified or credentialed that I could do that.
John:Um, now I get to do that and so those are the people who are like you must be a scam and yep, so I leave all kinds of information, like the case I just turned in.
Juli Whittiker:I was out second cousins once removed, because there just was nobody and nobody would answer the phone, nobody would call me back, and so I was leaving very detailed messages of how here's my serviceman, her mother, her mother, the sister, and you descend from that sister. So I got one call back.
John:Yeah it's the scammers. Ruin it for everybody, don't they?
Juli Whittiker:They do, it makes it more and more difficult for us.
Kathleen:What are you certified in?
Juli Whittiker:I'm sort of I'm credentialed, actually for the cafg. I'm in forensic genealogy, so it's a. I think the first part of the test is I have to write a report, a forensic report, and they review it, make sure it meets their standards. Then the second part is I have to do an affidavit separate case, but an affidavit with all the components that you need to have they review that. If I pass that part, then you have a written test after that and it covers all kinds.
Juli Whittiker:Yeah, it has all those different areas we talked about. It's got all those different areas on it. You don't have to be an expert in everything, like I'm not a genetic genealogist, so there's a dna section, but I know enough to do that section. But am I trained enough to do what CC Moore does? No, I am not. So they have their own tests now, though, so I don't have to worry about taking that test. Got it? It came out not long ago.
Kathleen:So I want to make sure that our listeners understand that you are certified. There is a certifying organization is, but it's not a requirement. So, and the reason I'm saying that is because I have been doing forensic genealogy forever, right, and it has been the bulk of my work actually through the years, and I have to say I've never gone through a certification process by 2012,. I had plenty of clients and most of my were attorneys. Yeah, so there are other ways of entering into the field.
John:There is. Yeah, was that? Because you kind of grew up with, as you were working, starting in, let's say, 2005 or 2006,. You kind of grew Kathleen with the more computer-based genealogy research and so you know you were diving into that as it developed, as the DNA software is developed as resources. You were kind of in front of that. So you kind of grew up with it.
Kathleen:I was an early non-scientist.
John:DNA person there you go.
Kathleen:But I also realized there was a need for the attorneys. So as I was networking, they were gravitating toward me, so they were my clients. Whether it was for biological parents or for a court case of a probate type or airship type, I did a lot of airships but what I chose to do.
Kathleen:Instead of being certified there, I decided to be a licensed private investigator. Only on that, the forensic side. I don't do surveillance and peek in your trees and find out who your husband's having an affair with. I don't care about all of that, but I do need the very important documents and records. So I just wanted to make sure that it was clear with our audience, because I do want to put a plug back into the Council for the Advancement of Forensic Genealogy. You mentioned an internship program. How do listeners get involved in something like?
Juli Whittiker:that? Well, it's a peer mentorship program. How do listeners get involved in something like that? Well, it's a peer mentorship program. So we have a $30 general membership level that anybody can join. Anybody can come in, they can get on, they can get into the group where you can ask questions. So you can at least get into that group and then at some point people have questions. You know you can answer it. They have a question. You know somebody to help answer their questions From there. If they choose to do the peer mentor review, where you level up to be able to get to that certification, they can then send in a report to have it reviewed to see if they have enough experience to be able to manage that, and then we would let them in at that level and then they can ask to be assigned to a mentor who can then help give them work and help guide them.
Kathleen:I want to say I said I wanted to put a plug. Although it's not required, I highly recommend anyone interested in this field to go through the full training because it is a very specific it's a niche type of genealogy.
Juli Whittiker:And I think it helps give them guidance of what they're doing good, what they can improve on. And for a court every court is different, but if you get your affidavit in pretty good, uniform position that you know every court's going to accept it without any issues, right so one of the things I saw, I think, on your website was something about the forensic genealogy institutes.
Kathleen:Is that the same thing as the cafg? It is, it's their, it's the name of their institutes and what do I learn there that I'm not learning normally?
Juli Whittiker:Well, we haven't had it in person. When we did a fall one day, one last year, we did one last spring. We'll do one this coming fall. We pick a variety of topics and we have like a one hour lecture on that topic and then people can ask questions of that lecture and learn more about areas. Because maybe you want to do dual citizenship and you don't know how to get into it. Well, if we have a dual citizenship person talking, they can help them forge who to contact about trying to get into that field or what they need to do for themselves to get in that area. It's to give them an idea that there's all these different facets of forensic work that you can do, you know. So maybe you just need to pick the part that interests you, because that's usually the part you're going to succeed at If it's, if it's the one that's most interesting to you.
Kathleen:So I let me just say hold on, let me hold on, hold on, hold on, dpaa. What is DPAA? That's all over your website.
Juli Whittiker:It's the Defense POW MIA Accounting Agency's website. We shorten it because it's easier to use the acronym than it is to say out the whole thing every time. So when I leave my messages for people I say the whole word and then I say but here is the website you know, wwwdpaa or whatever it's dot mil. I should have that memorized. I have a script I read from, so I don't mess it up and that's that's the bringing home.
Juli Whittiker:The remains correct and that way they can verify that the program does exist and why I'm calling them got it. And at the bottom of the family page it scrolls across the bottom all the men that have been identified recently. But they have a whole page on the DNA and why we're asking for the types of DNA that we are.
Kathleen:So you're not necessarily just using Y, or do you just use Y and autosomal on your DNA?
Juli Whittiker:Well, it used to be empty DNA. Then they added Y DNA. Now we can do autosomal. I have a chart somewhere it's not in front of me. I have like grandchildren and nieces and nephews that don't you know, like like the daughter of a brother. She doesn't have Y DNA but she would autosomal. So I have a chart of those individuals that we can actually do for autosomal as well. Okay, perfect.
Kathleen:This is all so much fun, I didn't know what I was missing.
John:So my question is have you run into any real posers, real difficult jobs that had a surprising outcome?
Juli Whittiker:Well, my Navy repeat creation work. I've been cussed at, hung up on you name it. I've had it done to me. It's just very discouraging, especially when I have nieces and nephews alive and they won't call me back. The voicemail will say it's them and they will not call me back. I had a sister Once in a blue moon. You'll have a sibling alive, you know. She was born in the 40s and he was born in the 1910s or 20s. And they'll say I want nothing to do with you. And I'm like how could you say that? That's your brother? You know.
Juli Whittiker:And one lady you know one. The biggest thing I get is the security of the information you know. And and are the Chinese going to hack into that? And finally, one lady you have to pick and choose you, what you're going to say to people. But one lady, her aunt. She goes. My aunt said you're going to call me and I'm not supposed to talk to you because they're going to steal my DNA. And I'm like do I go there or not? I said well, ma'am, what do you think the Chinese are going to do with your DNA? And she sat there and she goes they're probably going to get rid of it, aren't they? And I said probably. I said what are they going to do with it? She, every now and then you'll get one that maybe you know they use their mind will change their mind.
John:But I mean, I was at a dead end because that aunt had told all of them not to talk to me I look at so much of this as kind of from the opposite end is I assume it's all it's already had it can already be found it's already out there. As deep as you want to go, you can pretty much figure out anything you want with a couple of applications and some Internet research.
Juli Whittiker:Well, my DNA is out there on the websites, and so I told my family well, if you've done something, they're going to get you through me because mine's out there.
Kathleen:I keep John's out there, Julie, just to see if he's into any trouble.
John:I I want to know she keeps sending my name to crime. Uh, crime network right, check this, check this.
Kathleen:I don't know where he was yesterday I'm pulling up my website so you can see what it says it says the defense pow mia accounting agency is committed to bringing home the remains of servicemen from world war ii, korea v and vietnam. It is our job to identify eligible family members, to provide a dna sample and identify the legal next of kin I think that's the second part up.
Juli Whittiker:Yeah, the first part of the dpa's work is the dna side and then at some point they you know, they never tell me, you know have they made a match? Now I don't know because they don't want me to tell the family if there's been a match made. But I get a second task order to identify the oldest living next of kin, because just because you're a dna person doesn't mean you're actually the next of kin. So that is the oldest legal living family member, usually a child, grandchild, niece, nephew, sometimes a sibling. So I have to go out and identify who the oldest legal next of kin is, and I usually identify the top three people because usually they're quite elderly. But we do our best to get a hold of them and get a phone number that the Navy can call so they don't have to send the personnel to the home, because they will send them to the home if they have to.
Juli Whittiker:Right Now the case I just finished up up, one of the women was still alive. She's 95 years old and I just didn't have the heart of me. It was her uncle to call and I got a hold of one of her children. Goes yes, send whatever to me and then I will go over and talk to her about it. I've had cases, I just. I just I try to be cognizant of that age before I pick up that phone and call, especially if it's a sibling yeah, yeah, I would imagine that can be jarring um right and plus, they don't want to get their hopes up either, because what if they don't find them before they pass away?
Juli Whittiker:that to me? We, you know gut-wrenching too, but the children usually can, yeah, you know, handle have that conversational easier so, john, do you have any other questions with julie?
John:no, I actually don't. I've enjoyed and I've been on the receiving end of so much information. I've been over here looking at websites as you. You, julie, was talking and I'm scribbling things down as well, but, julie, thank you so much. I'll say thank you I'll start off and say thank you, but hold on, but kathleen looks like she's shaking her head like, no, I'm not done with her go the last two lines, the last two lines on your sheet?
Kathleen:ask Julie.
John:Oh, how can people get a hold of you? Look at that buried down at the bottom. Well, how can people say yes, julie, it's time, it's flog time, so go ahead and?
Juli Whittiker:The easiest way is to just send me an email it's genealogysafari at gmailcom.
John:Easy. So, Julie, we will add that to your show notes so people will know how to get a hold of you and what about social media.
Juli Whittiker:Yeah, I do from a genealogy safari. I do have a page. I have one as me too, but my website does have a page. Okay, I'm on linkedin and yeah and julie.
Kathleen:As for a person to actually uh, become a part of the council for the advancement of forensic genealogy, you talked about the fees. We will also add that website. Is that correct?
Juli Whittiker:yeah, and they can thirty dollars for general and then, once you become peer reviewed, it's 110, and then there's a couple levels that you can level up as your experience increases, and then you can go for the credential at the end very cool.
John:Well, thanks so much for the uh, for the work that you do. Well, thanks for having me. Hey, that's our pleasure. That's our pleasure and our listeners' pleasure, of course, because you know, sometimes you come here and you learn a whole lot, don't you? Yeah?
Kathleen:Kathleen, and thank you, john. You were such a nice guy today. You almost behaved.
John:I didn't know that was a net plus.
Kathleen:Julie thanks a lot for joining us. We'll talk soon, you and I. Okay, thank you, thanks, julie, thank you Bye-bye.
John:Well, congratulations, you made it to the end of another episode. Thanks so much for staying. Thanks to Julie Whitaker from Genealogy Safari for chatting with us. Thanks to Chewy Chewbacca Brent for his unwavering lack of interest in anything we're doing. The theme song for Hittin' the Bricks was written and performed by Tony Fisknuckle, and the Bobs watch for their next appearance by the stagecoach sign in Strawberry. Do you have a genealogical question for Kathleen? Drop us a line at hittingthebricks at gmailcom and let us know.
