Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen
A "brick-wall" DIY genealogy podcast that features your questions and Kathleen Brandt's answers. She wants your stories, questions, and “brick walls”. But be ready to add to your "to-do" list. As Kathleen always says, this is a Do it yourself (DIY) genealogy podcast. “I'll show you where the shovel is, but I'm not digging up your family.”
Maybe, you have no idea where to start searching for an ancestor. Or, perhaps you want to know more about your family folklore. Host Kathleen has 20 years in the industry and is the founder of a3genealogy. She's able to dispense genealogy research advice and encouragement in understandable terms that won't get you lost in genealogy jargon. Along with her husband and co-host, John, she helps you accomplish "do-it-yourself" research goals, learn some history, and have a bit of fun along the way. Light-hearted and full of detailed info, Hittin' the Bricks is your solution for your brick-wall research problems.
Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen
Overturning Folklore: The Real Lives of Our Female Ancestors
The stories of our female ancestors are often stripped down to the simplest narratives – they were farm wives, mothers, teachers – but beneath these sanitized descriptions lie complex lives filled with surprising choices, passionate relationships, and occasionally scandalous secrets. Join Kathleen and John as they peel back the layers of family folklore to reveal the true stories of the women who came before us.
The women were secretive, the documents were not!
Be sure to bookmark linktr.ee/hittinthebricks for your one stop access to Kathleen Brandt, the host of Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen. And, visit us on YouTube: Off the Wall with Kathleen John and Chewey video recorded specials.
Hittin' the Bricks is produced through the not-for-profit, 501c3 TracingAncestors.org.
Ladies and gentlemen from the depths of flyover country in the heartland of America, the Kansas City on the other side of the mighty MO, welcome to Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen. I am, john, your humble hubby host, and today we'll be talking about the women who made history in our lives and how to research them. There's a lot to cover and some tea to spill, so let's start Hittin' the Bricks. So, kathleen, you wanted to bring me on here to talk about my mother.
Kathleen Branddt:I did not want to talk about your mother. I wanted to talk about women. This is my understanding.
John Brandt:Oh, oh, oh okay, I really misunderstood the memo then.
Kathleen Branddt:It has nothing to do. Well, it does have something to do with your mother. We are going to talk about her, but it's really about women in our lives, our female ancestors, and I'm going to give a few tips out, because everyone is expecting the same thing from their female ancestor well, what would that be?
Kathleen Branddt:their farm wives, their housewives. They raise children and maybe during the wars they did some work efforts, but they pretty much had nothing that they were doing, and I want to let people know that our female ancestors were also quite exciting in some of their extracurricular activities.
John Brandt:Well, OK, so now we're going to talk about my mother's extracurricular activities. I see where this conversation is going. We've been headed to for it for a long time, I guess.
Kathleen Branddt:Well, we did find quite a bit out about your mother, yeah more about my grandmother too. More about your grandmother, but let's start with your mother, because one of the things we always my mother was a farm girl.
John Brandt:Yeah, she was a farm girl.
Kathleen Branddt:Yeah, she was a farm girl and she raised children, and a teacher and she never did anything wrong. Not that society would think.
John Brandt:Your name was a good girl.
Kathleen Branddt:She was a good girl, as a lot of people would say, so when we talk about what? Is a good girl and our folklores we.
Kathleen Branddt:That brings us back to your mother, right yeah, there was a lot of folklore there's always a lot of folklore, but we don't know what's true and what's not true, and we don't know what we don't know. So what I want to talk about are secrets within our families that were never passed down, or those that were partially passed down, and how do we verify, deny or just accept what we see in the date? So, speaking of your mother, john, here we go. You were older when you realized that she had been married before your father Is that?
John Brandt:correct. I wasn't older when I realized anything. I was older when I was finally told so how old were?
John Brandt:you? I didn't. Well, I think I was 40. No, I don't know how old I was, but it was my early teens. I think Maybe 12 or 13. And I think maybe it was younger than that. Because my dad had to come claim at some point that he had a son. We were living in Virginia and he had to come claim about having a son in California because I think we were going out to visit and I think after the first time we went out there then mom had to come clean about a previous marriage too. So at some point they decided to, I guess, clear the air. And again, I was the youngest of three, so they did most of the stuff in our house when they're going to have group conversations. They did it at my oldest brother's ideal age, so they might have been telling him something at 13 or 14 and I'm just wondering what the hell was going on because I was like seven years old going on.
Kathleen Branddt:I have questions so, um, you find out, yeah, that both your parents had been married previously, and you were almost a teenager at this point, yeah, yeah, let's say I was whatever I was okay, so your father did have a son from his first marriage.
John Brandt:Yeah, we got to meet bob. Bob was um. Golly, how much older was he than I was born in 40 years or 34. He was older than my mother yeah, okay, yeah, so he was a year older than your mother so that was bob, and we've met bob.
Kathleen Branddt:but then your mother, you were told was was married and what were you told about that marriage?
John Brandt:That it didn't last long. I think the idea was she annulled it, or said she tried to get it annulled, or you know. It was, for whatever reason, a bad mix, but not a lot. I wasn't told a lot about it, just that it wasn't Somehow. She ended up married and then ended up divorced, of course, which was the scandalous part, of course so I did see your mother's marriage announcement and her original marriage certificate, which was in 1939.
John Brandt:I don't know what all you have well, which was also the year she graduated from high school, from sh Sherman High.
Kathleen Branddt:So you do have her class ring, which is 1939, but that was May. Your mother was married in December. She did, however, that year marry. Her band teacher Did you know, that part.
John Brandt:Yeah, I knew she'd. Yeah, because the band teacher, my Uncle Hugh, was in the band and played in and actually, I think, ended up going into the military and played in a military band, whatever branch he was in. I don't remember off the top of my head, but yes, I know that they were friends, or if not friends, then because I don't think my, I think he must have been older than her, because I don't think he was in high school. I think they were actually friends. He might have been a previous, they might have played together, I don't know yes, so this was her brother, hugh and william wolcott collins from texas.
Kathleen Branddt:Didn't marry your mother in that 1939 there was that announcement in the paper as well as their marriage certificate, and the marriage was short. It really was short, the um. So I don't think that was. They didn't tell you that part, but your uncle hugh knew that it was a band teacher, did he tell you all also?
John Brandt:oh, oh, no, no, you know what the um? That's a good way to put this. Our family relationships were highly curated by my parents and I'm not sure I understand why. I mean, it's difficult to say why they did what they did, but yeah, we didn't have, let's say, unmonitored interaction. That wouldn't have happened and it's always. It always sets up the environment. Where you're, you feel like somebody is afraid, that somebody's going to say something that they shouldn't have said, right?
John Brandt:and that would have always been me in the room, so and that is exactly.
Kathleen Branddt:well, that is exactly why we only have folklores, right. The older people wanted to keep kids in their place and that was not getting involved in adult conversations. However, I was told by you that this was a story, and when we visited one of your other uncles, your Uncle Ted, he confirmed that your mother did marry the band teacher from the high school.
John Brandt:Oh yeah.
Kathleen Branddt:And that she wasn't married long. And then, like I said, I went back and I looked up documents, and I know you have looked at a few documents also on your mother and her marriage. One of the things I want to make sure our listeners know is that when you're looking for these folklores, you can't just follow that female. It's just as important for you to follow the William Wilcott Collins in your world, because he has the other half of the story and in this case court records. Court records spill a lot of the information. So we had to find the divorce. Don't just know that they're divorced, we must pull those documents to see what's in it.
John Brandt:Well, that's yeah, that's always been a thing. Is that finding those actual documents of like? I have my dad's side, I have his divorce papers from his first wife, those I've seen, but the documents on my mom's side have always evaded me of where they were. But you found something, of course, through Collins, her first husband, Right, that's how you found and that was listed in a different paper, wasn't it?
Kathleen Branddt:That is correct.
John Brandt:Was that the one she was listed? Not as obviously Frances Vestal, which was her maiden name. She was listed as Frances Collins.
Kathleen Branddt:That is correct.
John Brandt:Yeah, so that would be. It would have been another reason had I been looking for my mother. I never would have found her if I didn't know she was married to a Collins at some point.
Kathleen Branddt:And in this case, because we're looking for the women, we have to follow the path of the man. And William Collins did join part of the military right after Teachers College when he graduated from Teachers College in Texas and the next thing you know he's in Washington DC. So we're also going to have to do that entire metropolitan area. So that's the main tip when we're following these kind of folklores is don't forget you can't just follow the woman, you must follow the man, even if he's not your bloodline, and you're going to learn too much about him. But that's how you find your own mother.
Kathleen Branddt:So it's not just that part and you're going to learn too much about him, but that's how you find your own mother. So it's not just that part. Bill Collins was actually in the military while married to your mother and while divorcing your mother. He wasn't necessarily in the military, but he might've been a civilian. So but he was definitely working for the War Department.
John Brandt:Yeah, I mean we're talking about a time of whole bunches of changes in 39. But now I remember a story and I don't know the validity of it, of course, but part of this folklore is we're talking about the war, is that in some way he got deferred to stay home side, or something like that? And I remember that my mother pointed that as one of her rationale for not wanting to be married to him. Now I don't know if that was some virtue signaling on her part back then, like well, he didn't want to fight in World War II. So I don't know, I don't know if that's real or not, but that I do remember her implying that he he got out of active service so was your father in active service no, dad was not in active service.
John Brandt:now he said he wasn't in active service because he had a son and he was the sole provider. But we know where his son was during a lot of those years. But at the same time now he was a civilian worker and he was in Anchorage and in Dutch Harbor. So during wartime, so he was, he was a civilian welder for the military.
Kathleen Branddt:And we do know that Bill Collins was also in the DC area working for the War Department and his records may be either with the military itself, because later he did join the military.
John Brandt:You say later what's, later what's later than 1945?. He joined in 1945?.
Kathleen Branddt:He was enlisted as being part of the military in 1945.
John Brandt:Okay.
Kathleen Branddt:But it might be he transferred?
John Brandt:Could he have been in the military all the time, from, let's say, 1941 to 1945?
Kathleen Branddt:Originally he was with the War Department. That's in the newspaper.
John Brandt:Okay.
Kathleen Branddt:He was hired by the War Department. Now when he transferred, we don't know.
John Brandt:That's why we need those records and in that information, His side, I know, is really well researched and his family is very active on ancestry.
Kathleen Branddt:Okay, so you just want to find his military records and you want the full file Because that's where you might find your mother mentioned, or the divorce mentioned.
John Brandt:Right.
Kathleen Branddt:So that's all I wanted to make sure our listeners know that, yeah good idea, good idea your poor mother. We talk about her.
John Brandt:What dragging her through the mud?
Kathleen Branddt:No, we're not dragging her through the mud. No you know, the thing is, first of all, it was wartime.
John Brandt:Well, it was 1939. And not for nothing women have a hard enough time even now. I mean, she couldn't get her own credit card. You know, I was 11 years old before she could even get her own credit card without her husband signing for it, and my dad was always very magnanimous about. Well, you know, when you do get married you want to make sure your wife has the utilities in her name. So she established some kind of credit, but of course that was one of the things that he had to sign for.
Kathleen Branddt:Well, that was sweet of him to follow that rule, wasn't it? So I mean, as I said, this is Women's History Month, so let's talk a little bit about some other women that we know in our, in just in our families. All right, so that was just looking at court records. But speaking of court records, I'm going to bring up one of my own ancestors.
John Brandt:Okay.
Kathleen Branddt:And I knew this woman, even though she was born in the 1890s, I believe, and it was Aunt Bird. Aunt Bird did not die till she was 100 years old, and that would have been somewhere around 1978, about the time I graduated from high school. Wow. So Aunt Bird was this woman that always had young girls staying with her because she was safe. My mother stayed with her, my aunt stayed with her, other people from Hutchinson. When Aunt Bird moved to Wichita, they would send their daughters to her because she could take care of it, take care of these women right, because you didn't have women off in apartments and so forth. So Aunt Bird, this very virtuous woman who is quite strong, with a strong personality, even at 90, when I remember her to 100. She had a past that no one really shared with us.
John Brandt:What kind of past was that?
Kathleen Branddt:Well, amber got married to a rather wealthy farmer who was from parts of West Indies, I think the West Indies, and they moved to Pratt Kansas and she had three children. But she kind of fell in love with one of the farmhands.
John Brandt:Uh-oh.
Kathleen Branddt:And not once, not twice, but several times. She and this man ran off.
John Brandt:Okay.
Kathleen Branddt:And they would leave Kansas and go into Oklahoma. She would abandon her kids it was in the news. The sheriff would put out a bulletin, the Oklahoma people would return them and then the man would have to go to court for the white slavery law.
John Brandt:Hang on, okay, so all right. So some specifics here. If you're not getting into them right now, I'm calling you. Oh, I can't Go ahead, let's go. Okay, your Aunt Bird, is she black or mixed?
Kathleen Branddt:She is fair skinned but black woman. Her family were slaves out of Missouri.
John Brandt:Okay, and so was Lady Chatterley's lover. Was he white or black or mixed? He also was black. He was also black, okay, and she ran away with him. Yes, and then when you say they brought them back, who's the they?
Kathleen Branddt:the sheriffs the sheriffs did kansas sheriff um my uncle charles tumbleson. Her husband would call my uncle Charles Tumbleson her husband would call the sheriff Now was. Charles Black, he was half West Indies. Okay, he was West Indian.
John Brandt:Okay.
Kathleen Branddt:He would call the sheriff, the sheriff would call Oklahoma and when she crossed the line they would turn him around and they would jail him and her and have the Kansas sheriff pick them up and take them back. So the question you're probably stuck on is what does the white slavery law have to do with that?
John Brandt:Well, okay, yeah, that's going to be one of them, so let's just go ahead and take it.
Kathleen Branddt:So, John, one of the things, just like we were talking about your mother and I'm saying, you know, military records and newspapers and court records are important. This brings me back to court records. In 1910, there was an act called the man Act. It was termed White Slavery Act.
John Brandt:OK.
Kathleen Branddt:And what it was. The purpose of it was to stop prostitution, especially unwilling prostitution.
John Brandt:Okay, so just sex trafficking was Like sex trafficking. And this is what year? Wait a minute, what year? Which year that we always say, oh, I love the good old days. Which good old days did we have the sex trafficking so rampant?
Kathleen Branddt:go ahead it was around 1910 was the man act? Oh, 1910, yes, when everybody was virtuous, got it, got it yes, and aunt bird was um involved in it, and this man, this, this, uh, whatever his name was. He was charged and it's a one to five year sentence. It was to prohibit interstate transportation of women for prostitution, debauchery or other immoral purposes.
John Brandt:Oh wonderful. So now let me get this straight. Which, which major city, which den of iniquity, which Babylon in the country, in the United States? Was this New York? Was this Chicago? Where were we?
Kathleen Branddt:Kansas to Oklahoma, but this is a national law.
John Brandt:This is not Sin City.
Kathleen Branddt:No, this is just women and men being human.
John Brandt:Being human, oh my goodness.
Kathleen Branddt:So one of the things I wanted to mention is why that law came to play, and I want you to listen to it closely and see if you find something interesting about it.
John Brandt:Okay.
Kathleen Branddt:This act, the Mann Act, was rooted in fears about rapid social changes, including urbanization, immigration and shifting gender roles.
John Brandt:Yeah, it sounds like. Well, wait a minute. It sounds like yesterday.
Kathleen Branddt:Exactly, it sounds like yesterday.
John Brandt:Somebody's got a problem, all right.
Kathleen Branddt:They have a problem with any change of thought Again. That's just being human. So my thing is anything that happens today already happened. We've already been there and all we have to do is get the books. And these were in court records and their sins of abandonment of their children and family and running off was all outlaid in the newspapers.
John Brandt:Wow.
Kathleen Branddt:So that is my secret story, but there are a couple of others I want to talk about, especially one other John Mm, hmm, and that is when we're doing our research on our female ancestors. We also learn a little, a little or a lot from our dna results oh my goodness. Yes, I think I know where you're going with this and so in your dna results, which we have already discussed once before yes we found out that you were only half cousins to what should have been your four cousins, your mother's little brothers.
John Brandt:My favorite uncle, who is still my favorite uncle, is not my full uncle.
Kathleen Branddt:He is not. He is your half uncle.
John Brandt:There is an NPE at some point.
Kathleen Branddt:John NPE, for our listeners, is a non-paternal event.
John Brandt:Yep.
Kathleen Branddt:And they could involve anything from adoption to, but this was not an adoption.
John Brandt:No, it was not. We know this because of the DNA. That is correct. It was not an adoption, so we can't really do that that is correct.
Kathleen Branddt:It was not an adoption, so we can't really do that, correct? So when we're looking at this in your dna, I use dna to find out where the npe event occurred. And of course it was just on this one set of first cousins, right? The other first cousins really are first cousins. So we know it was at your grandparents level, right, and we were quickly able to realize it was your grandmother.
John Brandt:Does not make her a bad person it does make her a person, though it does make, and I was told that was not the truth. That was, I've been told she was not a person. She was a saint, as my mother is often referred to as St Francis. I'm sure it turns out and you know, I'll be honest with you. I would love the people even more for their humanity and for the realness of that and for the realness of that, so much more than having some paragon of virtue that doesn't exist.
John Brandt:I'm much happier with the real person.
Kathleen Branddt:I think I would like to have that as a clip to share with my clients, especially because they are up in arms because someone had a child out of wedlock or someone remarried or someone found religion very late in life. So I really think it's important, especially as a genealogist, a family historian, that we don't judge humans for being human. So when we're looking at your grandmother, we were able to find the father family, the Brooks family of one of your uncles. And they may not know. We don't know who knows.
John Brandt:I don't know what the agreements were with my grandmother and you know her husband, that we knew, you know, you just don't know. And the timing of it, again, it's a completely different time and I'm not judging my grandmother because I don't even know. I was too young to know the relationship between my grandfather and grandmother. I knew them in their late 60s to 70s, I guess.
Kathleen Branddt:Sure.
John Brandt:But that doesn't tell you the whole story of a relationship.
Kathleen Branddt:And I always question, though when we have a 12 to 14 year gap from, let's say, your mother and Uncle Ted, how many years was it?
John Brandt:It was a few because she was 22. She was born in 22.
Kathleen Branddt:And I thought he was born in 35 yes yeah so that's a big gap and it would automatically as a genealogist kind of put a big question mark for me, right. But back then they would even say, oh, she had a menopause baby or oh, she got caught. I always had that question, but I would accept it until I found differently.
John Brandt:Right, and what I found was the dna showed us differently right because you're not going to find that in newspapers this would never have occurred had it not been you and I were digging and kept in touch with my favorite Uncle, Ted Right, and I mean he called you and asked you questions. He was doing research on his family and I don't know that he ever knew.
Kathleen Branddt:I can tell you I never said anything to a 91-year-old at this point no.
John Brandt:No, no, Because it came out right about the time that.
Kathleen Branddt:He passed away very close actually.
John Brandt:Yeah.
Kathleen Branddt:And that's when I realized it. And I wasn't about. There was no reason me telling anyway. He was quite proud of his surname and his ancestry.
John Brandt:Right, and I think he had. I mean, the point of learning things is not to turn other people's apple carts over, Right? I mean, what's the use in that? The people who want to know? I want to know and I think it's interesting. It humanizes the people in our family and the folklore. It really takes it out of folklore and, to me, turns them into human beings.
Kathleen Branddt:And then I had to prove it right. I wanted to verify and I wanted to verify. And that's when I brought in Uncle Tez and your other cousin from the other brother, so Hughes kids, and they were fine, they were your first cousins. Then there was this issue where it did not add up and I was able to analyze the DNA. The other thing we talked about when we're looking at women are the court records, not just court records for marriages and divorces, but also the court records for the laws. At the time I would not have understood. At Byrd's issue, even when I saw the white slavery law, I was led immediately oh, she ran off with a white man, but that was not the case. So you have to research those court records and understand the laws. So that's two and three, and then the third one is the newspapers.
John Brandt:Okay, dna court records and laws yes, of the time. You have to be aware of the laws of the time. So, again what's happening in the area that they're in or in nationally.
Kathleen Branddt:So the fourth one, of course, is our military records. Don't forget the men when we're tracing the women. We always say don't forget the women when we're tracing the men, but really don't forget the men when we're tracing the women Because, again, when we're looking at military records, they might hold the court records, they might hold the divorce information. It might hold a lot more than we normally would find. And, john, actually there is a fifth one. Did I mention newspapers?
John Brandt:No, you didn't mention. Well, you know we kind of talked about the newspapers and but, but go ahead. What's the importance of newspapers in?
Kathleen Branddt:this the newspaper searches get as a little hint of everything to me. I call it the outline. The newspapers give us the outline. Now, based on what the newspapers tell us, we either go to military records, or we go to divorce records, or we go to a marriage record or we can follow our ancestors across country easier. So these things are very important when we're looking for women, because without it you are just kind of lost, because the names were also very, very common.
John Brandt:Right.
Kathleen Branddt:So that brings me to my last point. We must make sure we're tracing the right person. There were a lot of Billy Collins married to a lot of Francis. Very seldom I can't repeat a name, so my name is Kathleen Brandt. There's a thousand of them. Even my maiden name, Kathleen Strader, there's about a hundred of them. I mean there's a lot less right, but I have a brother named Rhett, and you do not find his first name and last name together in any records that I have found so far.
John Brandt:Oh, yeah, well, I could believe that, I could definitely believe that.
Kathleen Branddt:So it's kind of fun to have these unusual names for the family historian because it costs us a lot less trouble to dig out the records. But with the last name of Collins, easy name and Brandt is a ridiculously common name.
John Brandt:Oh my gosh. Yeah, well, john too. I mean, I found that I have ancestors named John that I never knew of, but you get up there far enough, and the Johans became John really quickly. So it's, it's extremely confusing, hans and Johans become. Just OK, we'll call you John.
Kathleen Branddt:So those are my hints, though, john, when tracing our female ancestors for today, and especially the ones that had fun in their lives.
John Brandt:Well, you know, the thing is is that don't they deserve it?
Kathleen Branddt:Well, it's kind of fun to show that there are those who buck the system. It's fun to see huh, they weren't about to do what others expected them to do. They were taking this risk and women have always taken risk but it's kind of fun to see women taking a risk for themselves.
John Brandt:Now.
Kathleen Branddt:Aunt Bird actually abandoning her three children. That might not have been one of the wise ones, but at least she was following her heart. But do we know?
John Brandt:about the children. I mean, come on, I am just like listen honestly. I know I don't understand why my mother wouldn't have abandoned her three children at one point or another. I wouldn't blame her at all. I grew up with us. I knew I'd be like, yeah, I got it.
Kathleen Branddt:I understand, I really do so I also have been putting a lot of on blog posts and social media on the women in our world, for example, the black nurses out of new york who worked at t TB hospitals when others would not, and their contribution, as well as other things. So follow me on Facebook and LinkedIn especially, and also on the blog posts. You can find out where else your ancestor might have gone, and most of my postings are based on actual, real client work oh, that's really, really interesting.
John Brandt:That's, that'll be a lot of fun to. Uh, and I follow you. So I see all those little things come up, but there's way too much information. I wouldn't get anything else done if I just walked around and followed you on the internet too. I do that in the house, but I mean I can't do that everywhere, can't do that on the internet too. I do that in the house, but I mean I can't do that everywhere.
John Brandt:Can't do that on the internet. Well, thank you, john. Well, congratulations. You made it to the end of another episode. Thanks so much for staying. Thanks to our listeners from Edinburgh to Olathe and Paris to Melbourne. Thanks to Chewy Chewbacca Brand, our part-time crumb cleaner and full-time couch cushion, for his unwavering lack of interest in anything we're doing. The theme song for hitting the bricks was written and performed by tony fist. Knuckle and the sores watch for their next appearance at the pigley weekly in san antonio. You can find us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Do you have a genealogical question for kathleen? Drop us a line at hitting the bricks at gmailcom and let us know.
