Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen
A "brick-wall" DIY genealogy podcast that features your questions and Kathleen Brandt's answers. She wants your stories, questions, and “brick walls”. But be ready to add to your "to-do" list. As Kathleen always says, this is a Do it yourself (DIY) genealogy podcast. “I'll show you where the shovel is, but I'm not digging up your family.”
Maybe, you have no idea where to start searching for an ancestor. Or, perhaps you want to know more about your family folklore. Host Kathleen has 20 years in the industry and is the founder of a3genealogy. She's able to dispense genealogy research advice and encouragement in understandable terms that won't get you lost in genealogy jargon. Along with her husband and co-host, John, she helps you accomplish "do-it-yourself" research goals, learn some history, and have a bit of fun along the way. Light-hearted and full of detailed info, Hittin' the Bricks is your solution for your brick-wall research problems.
Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen
Tracing Romani Roots: Russia to Arkansas
Join us as we sit down with Sofia Stewart, a remarkable intern from the University of Missouri-Kansas City. Sofia's journey began in a Russian orphanage and led her to Arkansas, where her deep-seated passion for sociology and understanding societal dynamics took root. Through her work at Tracing Ancestors, backed by the Mellon Grant program, Sofia channels her background into grant writing and creatively designing promotional content, all while unveiling the profound importance of genealogy in shaping our stories.
Ever wondered about the hidden narratives within your family tree? This episode promises a captivating exploration of Romani ancestry and the complexities of adoption. Sophia shares personal and historical insights, from the deportation of Romani people to Siberia to the traditional Russian naming patterns that link her to her roots. We dive into her family history, including the lives of her parents, Alex and Faina, and the significance of DNA in uncovering close relatives and piecing together her adoption story. Tune in for a rich tapestry of identity, history, and the power of storytelling in genealogy.
Be sure to bookmark linktr.ee/hittinthebricks for your one stop access to Kathleen Brandt, the host of Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen. And, visit us on YouTube: Off the Wall with Kathleen John and Chewey video recorded specials.
Hittin' the Bricks is produced through the not-for-profit, 501c3 TracingAncestors.org.
Thanks to MyHeritage for their generous support to Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen! Follow us on social media and subscribe to HTB with Kathleen in order to enter your name in our monthly MyHeritage Complete Package giveaway starting Jan 2024!
Ladies and gentlemen from the depths of flyover country in the heartland of America, the Kansas City on the other side of the mighty Moe, welcome to episode 32 of Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen, the do-it-yourself genealogy podcast that features your questions and her answers. I am John, your humble hubby host, and we'll be talking about researching your Romani ancestor with a very special guest tracing ancestor, intern Sopia Stewart. So let's start hitting the bricks. So we are here. Welcome everyone to a wonderful Thursday that we thought was Tuesday, but it is actually Thursday. Kathleen has been calling this Friday since Monday of this week. It's been Friday and finally we get to Thursday after having two Tuesdays, I think and we're finally at the place where we're supposed to be, and that's with Sophia Stewart, here on Hitting the Bricks with Kathleen. All of a sudden I got the look.
Kathleen:No, no, look, no, look, Sofia Stewart, that's correct.
John:We're here with Sofia Stewart and Sophia is an intern for Tracing Ancestors, which is really the umbrella company that houses, and Kathleen correct me if Iestors A3 Genealogy is a partnership.
Kathleen:Because of Tracing Ancestors and being on the board, we knew that we needed assistance for the entire board because we are a 100% volunteer board. We are a 100% volunteer board, so the podcast is supported by Tracing Ancestors, and Sophia is our new intern from UMKC, which is the University of Missouri, kansas City, and we're happy to have her on board and we just wanted to make sure she's introduced to our listeners. John, yeah, happy to be here.
John:And you're in sociology, correct. You want to tell us a little bit about what put you in that direction.
Sofia:Yeah, well, you know, at first it was environmental science and then I kind of grew into the interest of, you know, studying how society coexists and the diversity that comes with it, and you know it's so vital to understand sociology so that you can understand the political and the economical side of it as well. You want everyone to coexist, you know, with a lot of like microaggressions and so on that can split groups apart, and so I've always been interested in just studying, like how to understand and kind of promote awareness. Are you originally from Missouri? Birth wise, I'm from Russia, but I was mostly living in Arkansas.
John:Why don't we start there instead of we starting at your degree that you're working on? We we're going to go all the way back to Russia. Now how do you get from Russia to Arkansas?
Sofia:Oh gosh. Well, you know, I have these two amazing parents, james and Beth Stewart, who decided to go to through the International Agency of Adoption and I'm actually their second adoptee. So they first adopted my brother from Ukraine and then he wanted a sister, and then they went to Russia and it took about a year, they said, to get through the paperwork and the immigration process of it. But yeah, so my parents originally at the time lived in Arkansas, so while they were doing paperwork, you know they were making visits to Russia, and so finally, in May 13th of 2000, I officially came to Arkansas at five years old.
John:Is your brother older or younger than you?
Sofia:He is, he's much older.
Kathleen:He's five years older. That kind of brings me back to your internship. What made you want to do an internship with Tracing Ancestors?
Sofia:I think when I first came across you know through the Mellon program and was introduced to Tracing Ancestors, I always thought genealogy was pretty interesting because it's so important to know your heritage and your ethnicity and your family tree, whether you want to understand your medical history or just who your family members were. I saw an interest in being a part of that because of understanding how people can find their story through DNA.
Kathleen:And I'm going to give you some of that at the end of this podcast. So hopefully our listeners will listen in.
John:I'm calling you on that. That is the cheesiest radio tease.
Sofia:The cheesiest that you've stated. It's not even like we got sponsors. Listen in, I'm calling you on that. That is the cheesiest radio tease. The cheesiest that you've stated.
John:It's not even like we got sponsors breaking in. That's just the cheesiest radio tease that has ever been on the program. That to me too, okay.
Kathleen:So Sophia I do want to mention this, john Sophia mentioned the Mellon Grant or Foundation, that is, who partners with UMKC and then UMKC helps to place students who are looking for internships, and so we're just one of a huge bucket of people in the Kansas City community area, where Sophia chose Tracing Ancestors, probably because we're the best as far as an internship program. So we've always had internships within A3, genealogy. There have always been paid internships there. We've had them since 2010.
John:Your internship program was always really interesting to me and always really kind of impressive, for one of the reasons was it was a paid internship program.
Kathleen:So, sophia, you actually applied directly. The first interview was for grant writing, so why are you interested in grant writing?
Sofia:Well, I've always had a passion for writing in general. Well, I've always had a passion for writing in general, and if this side of writing can help request for funds for any organization that I feel is impactful to a community and hopefully globally, then I think this would be a really cool way to express my skills and talents and to do something meaningful. And I think part of being adopted, too is I have that bit of connection with tracing ancestry and so, with having that relation, I feel more inspired and motivated to be a part of it and get other people involved as well.
Kathleen:Sophia, as far as your experience so far, what have you been working on for Tracing Ancestors?
Sofia:I know I've been playing around with some posters so I know I sent you that cover of you and John with Hitting the Bricks.
John:Which was a lot of fun. We both liked that.
Kathleen:Yeah, we fused it.
Sofia:It's up on our social media and then just kind of seeing what events are out there that we can also be a part of so as far as sophia is concerned, john, do you have other questions about her internship?
John:no, I want to know. I, yeah, I don't care about work. Um, what is this? You're just, you're always trying to turn this into like work, work, work, work, work, and I'm just like, hey, sophia's coming over, can we chat? Um, I'm gonna get, I'm gonna get some more coffee and uh, yeah, I want to know about uh, I want to know about uh, russia and beyond. I want to know about uh, dna and uh, that fun stuff. Do you have anything on that?
John:because I'm going to be so disappointed in this podcast if you don't have, if you don't have a good story here, kathleen I'm not worried about yours, your story sophie is super interesting but, kathleen, if you don't have a matching genetic story to tell us, it's going to be on.
Kathleen:So Sophia actually had taken her ancestry DNA Right, and so I have had a chance to look at it, but I'm not sure what Sophia does and does not know. She did have some of her adoption papers.
Sofia:Well, what I do know is that I am 95% Eastern Europe Romani. I am also 2% Baltic and 2% Aegean Islands, as well as 1% Eastern Europe Russian, and then 95% is really on the Romani side. What do you know about the Romani people? I know that you know the Romani people. They left northern India probably around the 9th or 10th century and then they arrived in Europe and they've been throughout Europe for 400 years due to like the distrust and the economical competitiveness because a lot of Romanis who the you know racial service gypsies were a lot of craftsmanship and so that was competitive to other traders. So the more they pushed them outside, the less they were a part of you know economical benefits of it.
Sofia:So a lot of discrimination and legal prosecution that was targeted to Romani people. The Romani flag is fairly new. I mean it was. It was officialized in the seventies, I think 1971, 1972. So you know I'm a part of a culture who they're very family orientated. They travel together as a big family and I think they were part of the dome cast of traveling musicians and dancers.
Kathleen:Ok, so I'm going to ask you a couple of questions, just so I make sure I'm not repeating what you already know. You had some birth records. You had your original birth record from, or the birth record that Russia gave your parents, and so you had the names of your biological parents.
Sofia:I did. Yeah, I was very thankful.
Kathleen:And you also mentioned that you were adopted. What do you know about when you were born?
Sofia:You know in the documents. So the hospital I was at was the Children's Municipal Hospital number four, and they only state that I was there on the second day since birth. So it seems as though my mother, who was Faina Pavlona Markova, might have had me at their house. So they had to travel to the hospital, which wasn't close, and imagine that they don't have vehicles because most of them, like I said, are outsiders. If they do, it's a wagon, so it takes some time to get over there. I know that I was in the hospital there for a year, so I was in the care of the nurses and the doctors who were there. No one visited, it specifically says in the documents. No one came, nor the father, and then after a year I was placed in the orphanage. The educational and PETA institution children orphanage number 95 is where I was placed until adoption.
John:Let me ask, without getting too much in your business do you have any memories of the orphanage or any of your time there prior to?
Sofia:I do, but I think it wasn't the best memories, basically because as a gypsy in an orphanage, you're not going to be treated the same way. I mean, you know, I have all these other kids who I notice have pale skin, blonde hair, blue eyes, very different, and I was specifically the only gypsy in that orphanage and there are a lot of you know misconduct, such as, you know, bullying, and I remember feeling very different in the orphanage and so when I have two people who want me to adopt me from the orphanage, I mean I was just like he was listening to my prayers, like I want to get out of this place where I feel so like an outsider, which is ironic. I feel like a Romani, an Eastern Europe Romani.
Kathleen:It was not. It's still not popular for the Russians to adopt the Roma people or the Roma children.
John:What's the name of the cat?
Sofia:Skittles the cat, skittles the cat skittles the cat she's probably just wanting to go outside on the porch and just enjoy being outside, and she keeps meowing at me. But if I don't stay out on the porch then she's gonna go beyond the porch chill out skittles that's what I'm saying sit down, skittles she is sitting down now. I think she heard you loud and clear.
John:I don't want to traumatize the cat.
Sofia:My bad, sorry, she scares me 90% of the time, so we'll call it even.
Kathleen:So the Romani people who were in Russia were deported to the Siberia area, which is where your family was, where you were born, that area. They were deported to that area in about 1930. They were kind of putting those, putting all of the Romani people together, actually earlier but by 1930, they were trying to make sure this effort was full blown. It was really started earlier, like 1909 or something around there. Ok, I can look at your first name and tell, based on your birth certificate, your name being Sophia was not given to you by your mother or father.
Kathleen:You did arrive at that orphanage and then the second day your mother left you. She left you when you were two days old. The orphanage had to hold you for a year and then they named you Sophia and if you notice, on that date it says September 10th, a year after your mother left. So I know that the orphanage or the place you were at that time gave you your name, not your mother, because Russians have a very well traditional naming pattern. You were named after St Sophia and St Sophia was celebrated between September 10th and the 12th. St Sophia had three daughters. She had faith, hope and love.
John:Talking about St Sophia. I was raised Catholic, and so St Sophia. Having now three daughters, we're into another world.
Kathleen:Absolutely this is. Eastern Orthodox.
John:Thank you.
Kathleen:If she were named by her parents, she would have been named after a saint, one of the five female saints. Probably in November I will I'm going to write a blog about this and I will block out your your real, your surname, but I will show you on that blog where I'm getting this information. I also already know your grandparents, your grandfather's first names. You were the daughter of Alex or Alexander. I could tell you that just because of your middle name, because your mother did give them their names. You know your biological father and your biological mother's name, so I can look at that and say that you were the daughter of Alex, who was a Markova. There's information on Alex, so I happen to know your biological father was the son of Peter.
Sofia:Of Peter Okay.
Kathleen:And Peter is. That is his. That was his father's name, because his name was Alexandrova. Peter Markov, I know that you are the daughter of Alexander and that your mother was a Markova, and that name is only popular with Russians and Czechoslovakians. So I have a little family tree for you, where you are the daughter of Alex and Faina. Faina means lucky, and her maiden name was Pavel. Her father's name was Pavel P-A-V-E-L.
Sofia:I know that Russia, like they, do a lot of patronymics. I think they're called that's correct when, like for boys, the ending is like Ovech evich, and for girls is ovna or evna. You know, russians, they're like the daughters and the sons of saints. I think kathleen was saying so faina is the daughter of paul, or peter of peter right, and then then Alexander.
Kathleen:No, alex, alex is his father.
Sofia:Alex is his son of Peter.
Kathleen:And Faina says Pavel Of Pavel. She's the daughter of Pavel, okay, gotcha, which is a very common name. What's not common is Faina.
Sofia:I didn't know which one was Peter or Paul, peter or Paul. But now I'm understanding, like how my mother's name is connected to this saint and my father's name is connected to another saint.
Kathleen:That's correct. Also, what happens is we can use that to find and pinpoint the location. If you were to have been named by your mother you aren't, but your parents were, so at least that's what we have to assume at this point so we would do the same process of that naming. We would do with your both sides of your parents, because this is the area that they did push the Romanians and they're documented in general. Do you mean, like, because they're not Romanians, the Romani people? This is where they push the Romani people and they're documented.
Sofia:Do you mean like in the Novi Konec area or just the Kamarov?
Kathleen:Yes, Nope, nope. We can even go down even further from the Novi Konec area. We can go all the way down to the Oblast for your family and we can go right to that region. They were in on the Kazakhstan border. In looking at your DNA, the excitement is you have lots of close cousins.
Sofia:Yeah, I know Romanis that are big families.
John:Well, there's some-.
Kathleen:Do you?
John:mean where are these cousins?
Kathleen:They're everywhere About the same time. Sophia was adopted, one was adopted out. It looks like he has the same as possible. He has the same father. But let me explain this. Sophia, you have lots of second cousins, which means you share the same great grandparents All four great grandparents on one side. Mm hmm, you also have cousins on both your mother and your father's side. So in doing your research you'll want to contact some of them. Someone else might have the other piece of your adoption puzzle oh wow, you have first cousins twice removed. Now that sounds difficult, but that means that that person's grandmother and your mother might have been first cousins. So that's two steps down daughter and then granddaughter.
Sofia:When you say they were adopted out, do you mean like in the same orphanage or in different?
Kathleen:Some of them were in the same orphanage, if you read the writings or the same area of the orphanage. If you read the writings or the same area of the orphanage. But the idea that if I were to take on a job for this, I would say we need to contact everyone else and let's find out what they have, Then you can actually narrow down to your grandparents very easily.
John:What time frame when you start digging into this? What time frame are we talking about? Sophia was born around 95.
Kathleen:Is that correct? Sophia, 95. What time frame? When you start digging into this? What time frames are we talking about? Sophia was born around 95. Is that correct? Sophia, 95. Yes, ma'am. Whereas normally we would use an average generation at like 24 years, we would shorten that to about 19, 20 years per generation. Just because of their lifestyle and their normal practices. It could even be younger, sophia. Do you have questions for me?
Sofia:You know, recently I found out that the children's orphanage number 95 is actually still up and running.
Kathleen:Now remember, a lot of the children that are in there are not like in Sophia's case, where the mother just gave them to the place and then left two days later. A lot of these children are acquired through wars. They were either taken from a parent or and the parents or the parents are deceased especially back in.
Sofia:I was doing a little research back in 95. Economy was was horrible in Russia. I mean, you would expect to get paid on January and you wouldn't get paid until April, like that's how bad the economy was and, like you mentioned, a lot of famish was involved. How would one try to get a hold of an orphanage in a whole different country? I mean, do people use WhatsApp for that, or how does that even happen?
John:Which app should I use to contact?
Kathleen:You were adopted through an organization, they are your best resource. They will tell you who to contact. So, for example, in America we have Red Cross. So a lot of times when I'm looking for something that I can't find overseas but I know the people who are overseas I might contact the Red Cross. Now, in your case, you're looking at some of the adoption places. You're looking at the Eastern Orthodox Church, so there's so much more information that you can get.
John:I don't know. Are you aware of the ERRC, the European Roma Rights Center? Yes, actually, what was bothering me is the time frame, is that in the 90s, there was a lot of forced adoption of Romani children, and that was sticking in my head for some reason, and so that's why I did Roll Over Online and there's some great explanations and maybe even some direction, and I wonder if they're not an agency that would also be one of the ones that you could use to actually yeah, that would actually have those records, because they've done so much to work against the.
Kathleen:The subsequent discrimination I don't know if they would have the actual records, but they would help her have the access to the records. They are a good resource. It was. My next part was the errc and my issue was See, this is why we should compare notes, Kathleen.
Sofia:This is why when we were having coffee this morning.
John:I was like do you have anything? And you're like nah, and you asked me right before we started.
Sofia:Do you want my notes?
John:And I'm like nah, I'm fine, we'll chat.
Sofia:I think it was interesting when John talked about the forced adoption, because when I was looking back at the paperwork, you know they'll have the names and the nationality. And so when they had, you know, Alexander Petrovich Markova, and then underneath Russian, and then when they had the mother, which is Faina Palvona Markova, they also had Russian. And then when they had the mother, which is Faina Palvona Markova, they also had Russian. They didn't have Eastern Europe Romani on there at all. So I think that's part of like having the possibility for adoption is you have to claim a certain ethnicity in order for that adoption to follow through. Because if the paperwork said for both of them Eastern Europe Romani, it probably wouldn't have even processed through Two.
Kathleen:Really good points, most of the agencies would not have taken you Right. So one of the things they did is the same thing we did in America.
John:Yeah, the United States has its own past with, uh, basically child abduction and and then sending them out to be rehoming.
Sofia:You can see that through native indians especially.
John:Oh my gosh, yes, right, yes and and uh the inuit really horrible stuff.
Kathleen:That, uh, yeah that is why they did do it probably because all you think she did was gave their names when she submitted you to you know at two days old, she disappeared, never claimed it, never claimed you back. So we know that wasn't through the war.
Sofia:If it was through the war and they didn't realize the facility of the hospital, whether it's the nurses or whoever were responsible for the name. I didn't realize it was not given by my mother.
Kathleen:Your mother would have given it in November. So that's your baptismal name, though, mm. Hmm, so you can also start with that church. By the way, orthodox yes, it is registered with the Eastern Orthodox Church, oh wow. And so nine out of 10, she can find it by the nearest church, and that's wonderful too, because you can tell at that point which region within the Oblast you're from, which region within the old blast you're from. What I'm going to do from here is I am going to write a blog on this, because I haven't really done.
John:We know, we know it's going to be on. A3 genealogy yes, yeah.
Kathleen:Thanks, john.
John:Yeah, and then I know no one's paying attention to him, sophia, so I am going to share this because You're going to do a blog on this Kathleen. I'm sure you're going to do a blog on this Kathleen. Would you like to tell us where we can find that blog?
Kathleen:They can find the blog on A3 Genealogy. John he thinks.
Sofia:I'm doing a shameless plug. Dinner's going to go so well for you guys tonight.
John:John, there's two things I do want to mention on the podcast. Sorry, these are white, these are. Oh, yes, yes, these are our wrap-ups. No, we're out, we're out of time. No, wrap-up, no more. No, you talk to the wrap-up, go ahead. No, we have. Uh, I know, because I know what you're going to talk about what the winner of July's MyHeritage Complete Package a $300 value Is that right?
Kathleen:That's correct.
John:Because they registered on our link tree.
Kathleen:And it's to Charlotte.
John:And Charlotte's going to be getting an email, or Charlotte already has and said, yes, I'd love that.
Kathleen:She has received hers for July and we have reached out to our August winner, but we haven't heard from them yet.
John:Okay, when we hear from them, you'll hear from us, that's one other thing yes, 23andme. I put up a post today.
Kathleen:They are having a lot of issues with viability, so I have reminded people once again, john, to do exactly what I had Sophia do, and that is to download the raw data from 23andMe onto their desktop. They can share that to other sites onto their desktop. They can share that to other sites, but if you look at our July newsletter, I believe I have the instructions on how to do that.
John:If you download it to your computer, make sure it's in two different places one in the computer, one off-site, hopefully If you use Dropbox or Google Docs or something like that. So keep it in a safe place, and, if you're me, you'll also have it on an SD card that you keep hidden in a drawer, and then also on a jump drive that is taped to the wall beside your computer.
John:Just duct tape to the wall and the other one that I typically use, surgical tape and wrap around my ankle, and that's where the other jump drive goes.
Kathleen:So, John, in between you and your backup issues, can we thank Sophia for being an intern with Tracing Ancestors.
John:Well, I hope so.
Kathleen:Thanks for having me. We don't want her to run away, but, sophia, thanks for joining us. Yeah.
John:Especially thank you for sharing your own personal story.
Kathleen:No, we're just waving goodbye. I'm waving goodbye to you, john. Sophia can stay.
Sofia:I'm hanging up on both of you. Oh man, ice cold, Ice cold.
John:Well, congratulations, you've made it to the end of another episode. Thanks so much for staying. Thanks to MyHeritage and Legacy Family Tree webinars. Thanks to Chewy Chewbacca Brandt, our part-time arenophile and full-time nephologist, for his unwavering lack of interest in anything we're doing. The theme song for Hittin' the Bricks was written and performed by Tony Fistknuckle and the Pandemoniums Watch for their next appearance at the Ratskeller behind the student union at Alcorn State University. You can find us wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Do you have a genealogical question for Kathleen? Drop us a line at hittingthebricks at gmailcom and let us know.
