Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen

Tracking Lineage: DAR and County Formation Analysis

• Kathleen Brandt • Episode 16

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Unravel the mysteries of genealogy with Ann Blackburn, our distinguished guest and hobbyist genealogist from St. Louis, Missouri! Let's delve into the complexities of the Daughters of the American Revolution (DAR) application process as Ann reveals her ordeal with incorrect historical details provided by earlier descendants.

Be sure to listen to the special appearance from Chewey 's Mystery Minute as he walks us through a county formation analysis.

Be sure to bookmark linktr.ee/hittinthebricks for your one stop access to Kathleen Brandt, the host of Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen. And, visit us on YouTube: Off the Wall with Kathleen John and Chewey video recorded specials.

Hittin' the Bricks is produced through the not-for-profit, 501c3 TracingAncestors.org.
Thanks to MyHeritage for their generous support to Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen! Follow us on social media and subscribe to HTB with Kathleen in order to enter your name in our monthly MyHeritage Complete Package giveaway starting Jan 2024!

Humble Hubby Host:

Ladies and gentlemen from the depths of flyover country in the heartland of America, the Kansas City on the other side of the mighty Moe, welcome to Hitting the Bricks with Kathleen, the do-it-yourself genealogy podcast that features your questions and her answers. I am John, your humble hubby host, and we'd like to say well, come in and bienvenue to new listeners in Norway and France, and on this episode we'll be talking to Ann Blackburn from St Louis, via Kentucky and Alabama. So let's start Hitting the Bricks.

Anne Blackburn:

Ann, you're in Missouri, aren't you in St Louis, st Louis, I'm not originally from St Louis.

Humble Hubby Host:

Oh, okay, where are you originally from?

Anne Blackburn:

Murray, Kentucky, and then before that it was Alabama, Mississippi. That sounds.

Kathleen Brandt:

Yeah.

Humble Hubby Host:

I always ask how did you guys meet? How did this happen?

Kathleen Brandt:

I have no idea how Ann found me. How did you find Hitting the Bricks, Ann Ann, how'd you find us?

Humble Hubby Host:

We hide typically, so I mean most of our relatives can't find us.

Anne Blackburn:

Well, I just saw on the internet and you were asking for people. You said you were going to be scheduling for November and all and if you were interested and you had a brick wall to apply and I applied.

Humble Hubby Host:

Well, there you go. See, Kathleen, it's your fault. You go out asking for people to bring their dead people in, and here we go.

Kathleen Brandt:

So Ann is a DAR member already on her mother's side, oh okay, but she considers herself a hobbyist, and so I am going to assume, ann, that the way you are a DAR member is that you connect it with other cousins or some ancestor that you may.

Humble Hubby Host:

And for a newbie, a DAR would be Daughters of the.

Anne Blackburn:

American Revolution. I came in under my grandmother's name, so she was already a DAR member. My great-grandmother, my grandmother. I just kind of came in with them.

Kathleen Brandt:

So in the meantime, John, Ann did a supplement for her king's side of the family. And Ann, is that your father, Scythe? Yes, and because Ann does not like me, I'm sure she came up with the name Thomas King.

Humble Hubby Host:

She should be able to find that real quick. You just put that in the internet, right?

Kathleen Brandt:

Just put in the word king, and I'm sure her family pops up.

Humble Hubby Host:

Just hers.

Kathleen Brandt:

But in doing so, Ann applied for a supplement.

Humble Hubby Host:

Okay, what do you mean? Ann applied for a supplement I was getting ready to have Ann explain that to us.

Kathleen Brandt:

So you're jumping the gun.

Humble Hubby Host:

John, I'm sorry, it's a little bit too much caffeine this morning. I'll apologize in advance.

Kathleen Brandt:

Ann, if you could explain to us what happened with your DAR application with Thomas King.

Anne Blackburn:

Okay, a supplemental is it's like an application, but you are already a member, so you're just adding an ancestor to your roster.

Humble Hubby Host:

Got it Okay.

Anne Blackburn:

And what happened was I listened to the descendants of Thomas King in Benton County, Tennessee, and I submitted exactly what they said, and it was wrong.

Kathleen Brandt:

Do you know where they got the information from?

Humble Hubby Host:

The wrong place.

Anne Blackburn:

I've traced the information back to Mr Holiday. That's all I know of him and he was in Benton County, holiday, which was the name of the town. It was his great great grandfather. And Mr Holiday is no longer among us, right? So I cannot contact him and say what in the world? I did talk to some other descendants and they are saying the DAR is wrong and they are right, and I don't think so.

Kathleen Brandt:

I don't think so either, and actually the information that you submitted is in a biographical book in Benton County and it is not cited. I found the book. I found exactly what they quoted. Unfortunately, it is unscited. It does talk about the three wives and all of this information. However, before I found that book, I did some research.

Humble Hubby Host:

Hang on a second. Thomas King had three wives. He did not.

Kathleen Brandt:

He did not, at least not proven. Okay. So, matter of fact, there's one that I know was not his, just by my research Sidney Lawson. Yes, sidney Lawson is not. I did not realize who you were.

Humble Hubby Host:

And you have a lot of this stuff. I'm thinking you were misnamed a hobbyist, I think so. That's more like me. She sounds like a ringer, exactly.

Kathleen Brandt:

Well, ann did receive something, and that is Ann received a rejection letter. It is funny because I didn't see that letter until after I had done some research for you and I thought this is not the same Thomas. They've mixed two Thomases, at least two for sure.

Humble Hubby Host:

So D-A-R is kind of in the same, in the same frame of mind as you two. Is that they're saying no, you got an issue here.

Kathleen Brandt:

Yes, so one of the things we do and DAR has been very good with it for the last oh, since I've been in genealogy, especially the last 20 years, and I've done a lot of in the niche societies they're trying to correct bad applications and so I did a lot of verifying in the early 2000s and I still get applications like ands and I could see what the problems are beside the fact that the last name's King. That causes one problem when Thomas King get that. But, ann, I'm gonna back you up a little bit.

Humble Hubby Host:

I love hey, hang on a second. I'm just interrupting. I'm to understand that at some point there may be other people who have been coasting through being members of DAR. That's correct. That'll get a letter to say you are now invited to get off the boat.

Kathleen Brandt:

No, no, no, they will not get those people off. They're just making all new people do it correctly. And now we have a lot more data. So the correction is important so that we get America's history right. And I'm going to talk to Ann about where to start.

Kathleen Brandt:

I don't know how much genealogy you've done, but you happened to tell me that your direct line to Thomas King was through his son, wesley. He was born around 1818, died around 1874. Correct, you don't have a lot on your tree about Wesley, so I didn't have much to work with, except he's married to the Autry woman, rebecca Ann. Rebecca Ann, autry, yes, and my only other question I have that I'm going to bring. Well, there's quite a few questions I have, but I'm going to bring one up then we're going to start with that. You had a document that you signed where you went to Benton County, tennessee, and in this document, at the archives room in the library, the archives director signed the back of the document. However, I don't understand the document, so I'm going to back you up and have you explain to me what this document says. The biggest question is the Wesley in Carroll County and the Wesley in Benton County. Are they the same ones, yes, so help me with the document.

Anne Blackburn:

Okay, I've got it. It says the names of the heirs of Thomas King, state of Carroll County With Tennessee. If they die without a will, then they round up all the heirs, they start dividing among those and they have an official listing of the heirs and what that is is okay, you've got the Jesse King. That's Jeremiah. He was a son. His wife was Ridley King, mary was a daughter, duncan was a son, sarah King was a third wife, married in in 1857, presley King was a son and then Katie King and Chesley King was a son.

Kathleen Brandt:

So these are all both columns on that top part are all the heirs of Thomas King in Carroll County, right, uh-huh? Okay, so let's go down Under. Wesley King you just have an underline, but that's probably just not taking yours, yeah, because then there's Albers and Ridley and Tyre. Are those Wesley King's kids or, if they're still, thomas?

Anne Blackburn:

The Ridley King was the daughter-in-law, the Albert, the Tisha, the Tyre. I have no idea.

Kathleen Brandt:

Okay, good, because neither did I. So that threw me for a loop, because I'm sitting there thinking I don't know where they came from and how are they related? On Isabella King, who is the consort of John King, which John King is, that.

Anne Blackburn:

Okay, you have this sheet and that's the children. You'll notice that, john King, and what I found and I found everything that's on here, it's documented or it wouldn't be on here, right?

Kathleen Brandt:

And who is John King to Thomas King Uh?

Anne Blackburn:

this, john King is listed as the son and he, john King, was the first born. He was born 1817 in North Carolina and I do not have a wife for Thomas. The first wife is vacant. I have an idea, but it's Okay, let me just back you up a little bit more.

Kathleen Brandt:

Okay, on the first half of that document, the original document I'm asking about, there is a John King in Carroll County. Is the John King in the lower half of this paper the same John King or not? I don't know. So I'm going to start you there. The first thing we need to do is figure out how this document works and who these people are. We can't identify the correct Thomas King, which is one of DAR's question is how do I know which Wesley? Because there's a Wesley on both of these, one in Benton, one in Carroll, and there is a John King both in Benton and Carroll, all of Ayers. So my question would be how are all of these people with two sets of names related to your Thomas King?

Anne Blackburn:

Okay, I can give you a little more information. Okay, you see the list on the bottom half of the page that says John W. Yes, that's John Wesley. And those names, the James, the JC, the WJ, all those, those are another family. They're not Thomas's family. They are?

Kathleen Brandt:

They are John King and Isabella's kids, right? I don't know. Okay, so this sheet of paper right here will help you flesh out your Thomas King, but I am going to suggest you start in Carroll County and figure out who these people are under Wesley King there and then go to Benton County and figure out who those people are that are underneath John and Isabella, because until that is divided, you are not going to be able to prove to DAR that you have the right Wesley to the right Thomas. That's the first thing I would do, and that was a sheet I think I wrote you about that. That was one I was going to have questions on because it, to me, is the most significant. Start with books. The books will be your indices and your abstracts. They're not always right. You're looking for the books that are cited or, if they're not cited, you need to prove them right or wrong, just like I did the one biography, and I will send you what I have, because I went to about 20 books for you.

Humble Hubby Host:

Oh, thank you.

Kathleen Brandt:

And there's some names that I don't see on here at all. However, is Ransom on any of these? No, ransom is another family, okay, good. And there's also a Hirshheim, or a Hirshheim Another family Okay, good. You have discarded these people, which you should. When you're doing the research, though, in the same area, you need a chart of every one of the kings in Carroll County, because that's where you believe your Wesley is, and then you need to figure out who is the Wesley and Benton you know is yours, the Wesley in Carroll County is not, you know is yours.

Anne Blackburn:

Okay, right, that's where he owns land.

Kathleen Brandt:

Okay, so that Wesley we know is yours. And then if the Wesley in Carroll County you know is yours, you're starting with Carroll County, not Benton County. You don't want to start in Benton County until you figure out who this John King is, who also has a Wesley, and it could be one of Thomas' kids, except it doesn't quite make sense. So that is one of the reasons. I mean I can tell you the DAR. Until that is decided they probably will not accept because you have to prove your Wesley to your Tom. Now there's a couple of other things I do wanna mention. You wrote to me that your objective was to find where Thomas was born. Why is that your objective?

Anne Blackburn:

Because until I can find where Thomas was born, I can not locate his father, and his father is the one that I need in the proper timeframe for the DAR.

Kathleen Brandt:

Let me ask one other question. Where did you find that he might have had the father named John? Was that from the other information that you got? That was the descendants Go ahead.

Anne Blackburn:

So first the descendants chose there is a John King, yes, who has a son, thomas, and who was a doctor. John King, of course they chose him.

Kathleen Brandt:

Yeah, and he's quite famous, by the way. Yes, he's quite well known. This is common, right? This is a common thing that we want the most exciting person in the community where yours might not be that exciting, but I'll just take wherever he's from.

Humble Hubby Host:

I went to high school with a John King. Would you like me to give him a call?

Kathleen Brandt:

No, thank you, John, is it?

Humble Hubby Host:

Virginia, it might be a little bit off, but he might know something.

Kathleen Brandt:

I would suggest you not put your energy there.

Humble Hubby Host:

Have you thought of Facebook search? I think I'm just kidding, for.

Kathleen Brandt:

John King's for the sweet on Facebook. I don't think that might help either. So the only way to help you, to tell you the truth, is for you to start with Wesley, really Wesley of Carroll, because we can't skip generations. Your tree for Wesley is very scant. It talks a little bit about the atreses and so, and then I went back to 1820.

Anne Blackburn:

I have this that is Wesley's, that is multiple.

Kathleen Brandt:

Good, now you're going to decipher it and I think I saw on there. Did I see something on there about the 1836 and 1838? Good, so one of the first things I did is look at tax records. Where census records don't name anyone but the head of household. That early in 1830, tax records that give you at least the grown men by name, whether or not they're in the same house as their father or not. So if there's someone's 18 or 21 in the same house with their dad, the tax they were taxed and they're taxed by their names. So I would look at tax records for every both those counties. But to start let's look at Carroll, since we know Carroll.

Kathleen Brandt:

In 1830, there were four tax records for kings in Carroll County. One is a widowed woman by the name of Abigail. We need to figure out who that widowed woman was, because she was a king and she had married a king. How do we know that's not your Thomas's wife? We don't. We don't know who Abigail is yet. And then you have a John and a Anderson and a Ken I will send you all my notes but you also have a Thomas there and in the Thomas 1830 tax record and census record, let's say the census record, rather 1830 census record. There is also a woman in the house who's old enough to be his mother or his wife's mother or just an older lady. So we are gonna have to flesh out Carroll County really well In 1836, I see my same Abigail who is widowed.

Kathleen Brandt:

I see my Thomas, the older lady's no longer there, may probably deceased because she was already 80, 10 years ago. And then I see a John, also in that group, which he was also in the 1830 tax 1830 census in Carroll. He's also in the tax analysis. So what you're doing at this point is you're taking your census records. Head of household. Pay attention to those tick marks that John hates.

Humble Hubby Host:

Love the tick marks you wanna know what I'm talking about with the last podcast on census records.

Kathleen Brandt:

Pay attention to that and mark down who's possibly in the house, Like a son, this older lady, which is exactly what I did. And when you go to 1840, tax records between 1836 and up to 1840, you're gonna compare those tick marks for the households you've already done in 1830. And you're looking for the tax records for each person. You want to see if you can get the original tax records. And the reason is because, let's say, your Thomas is listed and Thomas is listed and Under them that timeframe in 1840, one of his children, one of his sons, becomes of age. That son, if he's living on the property or in Thomas' house, he will be probably enumerated underneath, Not always but most often, because they enumerate and you know they're reporting all of this taxes, which is more important to any community than the census record which is for the federal. So that is one thing I'm going to suggest you do a full tax analysis compared to the census analysis for 1830, 1836, taxes, 1840. I also found in Montgomery County there was another Thomas King in Tennessee or North Carolina.

Humble Hubby Host:

Welcome to Chewie's Mystery Minute. You know it, ain't whoey, if you hear it from Chewie. Today's episode is called Moving in Place. Chewie had just finished his mid-morning after snack treat when the doorbell rang. Because it is my job, I opened the door. A stranger stood there graying temples and looking very tired. He said I have an appointment with Chewie. I was utterly confused and, at 61, very little of my life makes any sense to me. I let the man in and showed him to Chewie's office, the living room. Did you find the place? Okay, asked Chewie. No problems, said the man. I was concerned my directions might be confusing, said Chewie. No, said the man. The fire hydrant was just where you said it would be and, besides, you texted me the address. Wait what I asked? Chewie directed me to get them both a scotch, and as I poured two shots into a highball glass for his guest and another two into Chewie's favorite scotch bowl, I listened and this was the story that unfolded.

Humble Hubby Host:

The visitor was named Robert Hypothetical. He lived a quiet life in Houston County, tennessee. After seeing an ad on television about how easy genealogy was, he decided he would research his family and impress all of his extended hypotheticals at the next family gathering. However, as most genealogists find out, nothing is quite that easy. Robert told Chewie about a letter from his grandfather he had found while rummaging through boxes in his father's attic. The letter simply did not make any sense. Robert knew his family had been in the United States from the very beginnings and had moved around a great deal From census data, birth, death and marriage and even tax records. Robert was able to track his family's locations. They first lived in Washington County, north Carolina, but moved to Davidson and then to Tennessee County in the late 1700s. Finally they left North Carolina altogether and moved to Montgomery County, tennessee, in 1796. Robert said he wasn't surprised to find his nomadic band of hypotheticals and once again moved to Stewart County, tennessee, where his great grandfather was born in 1851. But again, the hypotheticals were never quite settled and by the time his grandfather was born in 1871, the family was in Houston County, tennessee. They must have finally found what they were looking for, because Robert's father was born and stayed in Houston County, where Robert grew up and became quite good at making pork and strawberry jelly sandwiches, patent pending. But the letter from his grandfather claimed he, the grandfather, was living in the same house that his fifth great grandfather had built and someone from their family had always lived there. That was until Robert's father had moved to a new subdivision that had a homeowner's association at a pickleball court.

Humble Hubby Host:

Intrigued by the mystery, I could no longer contain myself. How could this be, I cried. They constantly moved. How could they be in the same house?

Humble Hubby Host:

Chewie scratched his ear and explained the location of the hypothetical ancestral home that was built by the Robert's sixth great grandfather was indeed built in Washington County, north Carolina, and he continued. The very plot that home was located in in 1783 became part of Davidson County, north Carolina, when it, in 1787, became part of Tennessee County as larger counties were divided. No, cried Robert, yes, exclaimed Chewie. Chewie paced the floor as he continued. And in fact, that very same location where the hypotheticals had built their large but somehow tasteful three story brick gothic revival homage to German castles in 1796, when the statehood of Tennessee was ratified, was now, quite expectedly, located in Montgomery County. Extraordinary, exclaimed Robert. Quiet human, barked Chewie. I'm not finished.

Humble Hubby Host:

Their home was renovated and remained in the family when the street where the hypotheticals lived became part of Stuart County in 1803. Incredible, gasp Robert. Indeed, said Chewie, and jumped on the couch Raising a paw over his head. Chewie concluded Finally, the part of Stuart County your family lived in became Houston County in 1871. You see, robert, it all makes sense when you apply appropriate county formation analysis. Your family never actually moved. The counties around them changed. It's very much like a car ride, said Chewie. You get in and the world around you changes, but it's not like you actually go anywhere. Amazing, said Robert. Indeed, agreed Chewie. Robert, now able to continue his research, gave Chewie a lint covered piece of cheese he pulled from his pocket as payment. Chewie returned to his late morning after consultation nap and I, your humble hubby host, finished the bottle of scotch. This has been a Chewie mystery minute. You know it ain't whoy if you hear it from Chewie.

Kathleen Brandt:

The other thing I'm going to tell you again is go back to the books Taxes. You're looking at census records and you're looking back in all of those county books and remember most of these records that you can't find in Ancestor. If you don't see them there, be sure to go to family search because they also might be on the microfilm Right.

Anne Blackburn:

Okay, how do I attack North Carolina?

Kathleen Brandt:

Because that's where they're from. I got that. But you can't do that. You can go to North Carolina. After you exhaust Tennessee and get your hints for North Carolina, something will tell you, for example, if they got Choctaw land or if they got Eastern Cherokee Band land. You, by going Chickasaw Okay, chickasaw land. You're going county by county. You cannot jump a generation or you're going to get the same letter back. How can you prove it? You're going to have to go from your Wesley to your Thomas, all in Tennessee. As you exhaust that, you're looking for the word North Carolina in anything, including the books that are cited. Then you attack the North Carolina once.

Humble Hubby Host:

Let me ask a question real quick. Yes, you've mentioned books. What books are we talking about specifically?

Kathleen Brandt:

Mostly county historical books. Okay, every county does these historical books. The WPA also did historical books, but there's some books that were written even earlier and some as late as like 1920. It was very important for people to capture who was the early settlers.

Humble Hubby Host:

And where do you find those books? I mean, is that something that you're going on site to a courthouse? Is it something? Oh, that's a good question.

Kathleen Brandt:

Yes, Some of these books are digitized on FamilySearch. They're also digitized on the internet under HathiTrust or Gail through the library. A lot of these books you can do interlibrary loans.

Humble Hubby Host:

What was that, when you said Hathi. H-a-t-h-i HathiTrust and they have quite a few.

Anne Blackburn:

Yeah, I've used them before. Yeah.

Kathleen Brandt:

They're excellent. There's all kinds of archival books that you can just Google and the place I go to when I'm looking for some of this is back to FamilySearch and say I want to in FamilySearch, just put in Benton County how to find genealogy records and information, early Benton County, and they have a lot of resources for you there. The other one is Cindy's List, again John We've made a. Cindy's List again.

Humble Hubby Host:

We love Cindy's List.

Kathleen Brandt:

Yes, because if you go there she even has more with links of how to access. The other thing I do know that you'll have to do where you're going to end up finding them is in wills and probates, because even if it was interstate and it was not a will-will, the inventory might tell you the child this child was the child of. This is the John who's the son of. So that will also assist you. And you need to flesh out your tree. Start with Wesley. The last one is a land trace. So in Carroll County you have the land, you have the deed. How did they get the land? Did he pay cash? Was it part of the agreement? Did he purchase it or did he get it part as the military?

Anne Blackburn:

It's occupant land where arrange seven section two, 111 acres of occupant land? How did he pay for it? I don't know If he was on the land. If he was on the land at the time of the Chickasaw and Tennessee agreement, then we have to assume that he inherited the land.

Kathleen Brandt:

So in that case, or he could have been an early settler you want the original land records, and those are not that difficult to find, and I'm not talking about the ones online. You want the application or the books which are normally at the National Archives, the local National Archives, the regional National Archives for Tennessee. So, ann, I think that kind of sums it up for me and I know I gave you a lot of work and I can't give you a magic potion, but I am going to tell you, to start with, wesley, take your time, work back.

Humble Hubby Host:

I wanted to circle back really quickly. Ann, you're doing this.

Anne Blackburn:

You've already done your side of the family right, yes, I've done about 19 of them so far, so I had another one that I had to do an analysis on. It passed, but this is the one that has never passed, got it.

Kathleen Brandt:

Right, you can't. You're not even a position yet to do what we call a proof statement, where you can say although I don't have a direct information, I have ruled out all of these people, so it has to be this person inferential.

Humble Hubby Host:

Ann, do you have any more questions?

Anne Blackburn:

No, I just thank you very much for the ideas and it gives me something to work on and I will send you everything, Ann, that I have.

Kathleen Brandt:

Okay, bye.

Humble Hubby Host:

Ann Thanks so much.

Kathleen Brandt:

Thanks so much, Ann.

Humble Hubby Host:

Bye-bye y'all.

Humble Hubby Host:

Well, congratulations, you've made it to the end of another episode. Thanks so much for staying, thanks to Ann Blackburn for her questions and thanks to Chewie Chewbacca Brandt, our part-time resurrectionist and full-time Hatter-Cop, for his unwavering lack of interest in anything we're doing. The theme song for Hit in the Bricks was written and performed by Tony Fischnuple and the electrons Watch for their next appearance on the Currents of Space. We'd love to hear what you think about the podcast, so stop by our Facebook page at Hit in the Bricks with Kathleen and let us know.

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Kathleen Brandt

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John Brandt

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