Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen
A "brick-wall" DIY genealogy podcast that features your questions and Kathleen Brandt's answers. She wants your stories, questions, and “brick walls”. But be ready to add to your "to-do" list. As Kathleen always says, this is a Do it yourself (DIY) genealogy podcast. “I'll show you where the shovel is, but I'm not digging up your family.”
Maybe, you have no idea where to start searching for an ancestor. Or, perhaps you want to know more about your family folklore. Host Kathleen has 20 years in the industry and is the founder of a3genealogy. She's able to dispense genealogy research advice and encouragement in understandable terms that won't get you lost in genealogy jargon. Along with her husband and co-host, John, she helps you accomplish "do-it-yourself" research goals, learn some history, and have a bit of fun along the way. Light-hearted and full of detailed info, Hittin' the Bricks is your solution for your brick-wall research problems.
Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen
Eastern Band of Cherokee: Pulling the Right Jack Out of the Box
Have you ever wondered just how deep the roots of your family tree reach? In today's DIY genealogy episode, we embark on an adventure alongside our guest, retired military veteran and IT professional, Bruce Gebbeken. As we explore the enigmatic life of his great-grandfather, James Jordan, we navigate the puzzling labyrinth of census records and familial silence.
Be sure to bookmark linktr.ee/hittinthebricks for your one stop access to Kathleen Brandt, the host of Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen. And, visit us on YouTube: Off the Wall with Kathleen John and Chewey video recorded specials.
Hittin' the Bricks is produced through the not-for-profit, 501c3 TracingAncestors.org.
Thanks to MyHeritage for their generous support to Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen! Follow us on social media and subscribe to HTB with Kathleen in order to enter your name in our monthly MyHeritage Complete Package giveaway starting Jan 2024!
Ladies and gentlemen from the depths of flyover country in the heartland of America, the Kansas City on the other side of the mighty MO, welcome to Hitting the Bricks with Kathleen, the genealogy show that features your questions and her answers. I am John, your humble hubby host, and on this episode we'll be talking to Bruce Gebbeken from the Show Me State and, for us, home, sweet Home, the great state of Missouri, and welcome to new listeners from California to New York and the UK, Germany and Oceana. Now let's start Hitting the Bricks. So we're here with Bruce Gebbeken and, of course, the brick hitter, Kathleen. Welcome, Bruce. Well, thank you, Bruce. What state are you in?
Bruce Gebbeken:I'm in Missouri.
John Brandt:So you're enjoying this lovely weather, we're having this week as well.
Bruce Gebbeken:I am really enjoying it.
John Brandt:I'm just assuming, are you retired?
Bruce Gebbeken:Yes, 22 years in the military.
John Brandt:Oh, how long 22. 22. Well, thank you for your service.
Bruce Gebbeken:I was a dual director of information management. I was retired. I'm a retired GS13 IT professional.
John Brandt:So we know who to call when we have trouble. Exactly, kathleen, do you want to tell us how this happened? How did you guys hook up?
Kathleen Brandt:I am not sure. Bruce said that he.
John Brandt:Maybe I'm asking the wrong person, bruce, would you like to tell us how?
Bruce Gebbeken:Yes, john, I can tell you. My daughter just happened to go to a library in Independence. She heard about Kathleen and said Dad, you need to see this thing called Hitting the Bricks. So I got on the link and Kathleen said we'll get together.
Kathleen Brandt:And so we're happy to have.
Bruce Gebbeken:Bruce.
Kathleen Brandt:I'm going to let Bruce tell us why he called it's fine with me.
Bruce Gebbeken:Okay, I shall. My specific question is we've been researching for a long time and relatives have been saying this and saying that, and the way I do genealogy for myself. If it can't be proven, I'll delete it or I'll put a side note, but I will not put it on my page.
John Brandt:Well, we're going to. You have to stop for a small standing ovation from the other genealogists right now. If you're listening during drive time, don't stand up, but there are a lot of people, I'm sure, who were applauding that.
Bruce Gebbeken:And my specific question was one relative which is my great grandfather was James Jordan. That side of the family they're very quiet about everything everything meaning they don't share things very much.
Kathleen Brandt:And so John the Jordans are located in the Indian territory, mostly around Pittsburgh County, oklahoma.
John Brandt:This is Cherokee Nations, I think.
Bruce Gebbeken:This would be Choctaw, a Choctaw in that area.
Kathleen Brandt:At least that's what Bruce thinks.
John Brandt:Uh-oh, there's a teaser. Now you got to talk about it.
Kathleen Brandt:The area is pretty much Choctaw area, but I have a lot of surprises for you, bruce. Let's just walk through it. Tell me where you left off. You had a great grandfather named Jim Jordan, and what do you know about him?
Bruce Gebbeken:James Jordan. James Jordan Right. We know that he worked in the mines. I did tracing and actually drove down there to Franklin, arkansas, to meet some of the Nichols family. There's no Jordans left down there that I know of, but the relatives don't remember them at all. What I know is just basically hand me down from what's left of the Jordan family in Pittsburgh County.
Kathleen Brandt:So let me just fill that part in right now. First of all, james Jordan does go by Jim and JJ. When he was in Arkansas that is, the home of his wife, fanny Nichols or Francis Nichols and of course I didn't research the Nichols much I did have plenty of time to follow Jim or James and I became quite intimate with him. His name is Jim to me at this point, but James Nichols.
John Brandt:Yeah, you guys, it sounded like you're going way back. Do I need?
Kathleen Brandt:to worry about this, james and I go way back.
John Brandt:How far back. Are we talking 1800s?
Kathleen Brandt:Actually early 1800s to 1700s, so we're going to keep talking about him. He was born around 1860s and, of course, bruce had that information about his birth date. Where did you actually get stumped?
Bruce Gebbeken:Bruce, I got stumped because one relative said that his father's name was well, his mother's name is Sarah and his name is Jack.
Bruce Gebbeken:They were from Old Salasaw. For some reason Old Salasaw was, I think it was because of the railroad. They picked up the town and moved the town eight miles so that they can have the town alongside with the railroad, and they said that's where he's from. I went to the Genealogical Society in Salasaw and it disbanded. They don't have anybody that's working with that, so I couldn't find any other information by any of Rick Wall.
Kathleen Brandt:So I opened that Rick Wall for you quite a bit.
John Brandt:And how did you do that? I have magic powers, John Magic powers, because that just sounded way too easy.
Kathleen Brandt:In my interview with Bruce he was intrigued about census records. So let's start with the census records. And the guy is born in a lot of places and they're all over the map as far as 1940, he says he's born in Maryland.
John Brandt:But before Jim James, james Jordan. Do you need to start addressing him, mr Jordan?
Bruce Gebbeken:Mr Jordan, maybe that would be a little more appropriate.
John Brandt:Jim will be fine with that. You're way too familiar.
Kathleen Brandt:Mr Jordan James. You know we see him in Arkansas, we see him in the Indian Territory. At one point he says that he's born in Maryland, whereas all the way through he says he's born in the Indian Territory. Now, as I've always said, we don't know the informant on census records, so it may or may not be correct, except in 1940, when he says he's born in Maryland. So that was one of my clues, but I just put it on the back burner. Why did he say he was born in Maryland? And I can tell you now, bruce, he was not. He was born in the Indian Territory. But Maryland was a clue, because my question is where did he come up with that? Why not somewhere else?
Kathleen Brandt:One of the questions you asked me was what happened to the 1920 census records. Bruce had uncovered, john, all of the census records but the 1920s. So in the 1920s in Oklahoma and across the nation everyone was fighting because people wanted to redraw the maps, pretty much because the city was getting more representation in Congress than the farmers and the country size. Oklahoma was part of this huge congressional battle and so there are parts of Oklahoma in 1920 that they were not counted as they should have been and reported back to federal Other places in Pittsburgh County you'll see them, but in their enumeration district which in 1930 was called 6132, that did not translate in 1920. And I just recently, as of today, got a third confirmation of that from the state of Oklahoma. So it's just a political thing and it happens. There's other times I've seen in Kansas where they just refused to take a state census because they were mad at some politician. You did ask me another question.
John Brandt:Hey, wait a second. I'm going back because I need to know why, maryland, I'm hanging on to that. You need to tell me why did he claim Maryland?
Kathleen Brandt:That was not until 1940, not 1920. In 1940, when Jim was the informant, yes. He was given information about his ancestors Right, which has some ties to Maryland.
John Brandt:And so he said he was from Maryland.
Kathleen Brandt:He said he was from Maryland, but he was not and he was 75 years old and his health and his memory had failed him by then.
John Brandt:I might have had something to do with that.
Kathleen Brandt:Yes, so, if you don't mind, stop jumping forward to 1940, I'm still on 1920. You're still on 1920.
John Brandt:Oh okay, wow, what happened in 1921? Go ahead.
Kathleen Brandt:No 1930.
Bruce Gebbeken:We're up to.
Kathleen Brandt:August of 1921.
John Brandt:Let's hear what happened.
Kathleen Brandt:We're going to ignore John on that Bruce, so in 1930.
John Brandt:I'll mute myself from here on out.
Kathleen Brandt:So in 1930, bruce, you also asked me a question why does it say on his census record Indian, cherokee, mixed breed? Yes, and that is accurate in the 1930s, in the column of number 19 and number 20. Those two columns were reserved to put in your parents birthplace. That was normal. However, in the instructions that would be the federal instructions for the census takers if someone gives the race of Indian in column 12, then they were supposed to designate which tribe and whether they were full breed or mixed breed. Now I will send you the statue that explains that and that's how we know that he is a Cherokee, indian and mixed breed. We still had to prove it. I know you mentioned. You couldn't find anything on that. So I went to hunting.
Kathleen Brandt:The 1940 census did give me the clue to think about. Why would he be Cherokee mixed breed in 1930, but not in any of our typical roles. And what I figured out was the migratory past. But the migratory path that I realized he had was the Eastern Cherokees. So these are totally different roles than the regular dolls and the regular roles that you find for them. And then the next clue I had was you telling me, jack and Sarah, but I'm going to stop there, because you also mentioned to me that there was an issue with obituaries or death and you tied it to Gladys. Can you tell me what that?
Bruce Gebbeken:was Okay. Gladys was involved with the burial when he passed away. Gladys was the person that gave him the information when the headstone was made. Gladys was then again involved and had the headstone made. They do not match.
Kathleen Brandt:Okay, so let's talk a little bit about Gladys. Luckily for you, your family had a news reporter and it was Gladys Patton. She put in all of the news of Harper Valley. It is through Gladys that I got a lot of information. One of the main things I got from Gladys that coincided with Jim Jordan's wife's obituary, gave us the exact date when he died. So Francis Jordan says these are the dates. This is the 1941 date that he died and it was accurate. I do have the funeral record for you, but I was able to locate it at the Pittsburgh County Genealogical and Historical Society in McAllister has a wonderful volunteer there named David. He was able to provide us with a copy of the funeral home's record.
John Brandt:Thank you, David.
Kathleen Brandt:Exactly, and I must say that this is volunteer ran in general. But it's the local people who have the history and they have a lot of the records. It was what's called the Cheney Collection and he was able to send that to me. I will forward that to you. What we received from them also has the exact same date that Francis Nichols daughter Gladys that she provided in the newspaper, in the obituary of Francis.
Kathleen Brandt:In that obituary I immediately went to just look at tombstones and I noticed there were two other Jordans who also died July of 1941. That was troubling. So then I went to the newspapers. The newspapers let me know that there was a JJ Jordan who was very sick in 1941. He had surgery. He was at St Mary's Hospital. When I received the funeral record that is exactly where your James Jordan died was at St Mary's. It actually added up very well and we have to take our hat off to Gladys for reporting every time someone was sick or visited, because it does also give us a few more hints. And one of the hints is he was sick before 1941 because Orphus, one of his sons, in a newspaper it said, visited the mother, but it did not mention the father even being around. So one of my last questions was why was he not around?
John Brandt:I'm assuming this is all news to you.
Bruce Gebbeken:This is all news here. It is here. When we died somewhere in the Callister, there was no idea where.
Kathleen Brandt:Yes, as St Mary's Do you have. The newspaper tells me that he was in two places, but only one of them was accurate. The accurate one I want to say is Ward'sville. So I'm going to move forward.
John Brandt:Yes.
Kathleen Brandt:That is just up to Gladys and on page two of my five page notes. So here we go. The person who actually reported the burial information on Find a Grave is a Thomas Henry Jordan. I asked you if you knew Thomas Henry and you said no, and that makes sense because the family was quite fractured. I put that one on hold because I did not know which Thomas Henry it was who actually reported the burial information. But remember I mentioned that this was from the Eastern Cherokee territory. Jack and Sarah were indeed recorded and they are named on the funeral record as the parents of Jim Jordan, which means that's where everyone is getting that information from or that's where someone got that information from.
John Brandt:This I thought was a really interesting case, and not for the reasons I thought at first, but it's got some great educational hooks too.
Kathleen Brandt:Well, yes, and poor Bruce. I would love to give Bruce some great information, but his entire work on this line is going to be eliminating people, which is exactly what we've done with one whole line. One court record proved that a couple was not the correct one, and that is always what we call our negative results, bruce. We love them, actually, because it eliminates a larger field. So we're thinking you're, you know, as of today, I'm on the right track, I'm on the right track, and then you get a document that says that's not the right track. Well, disproving is just as important in genealogy.
John Brandt:So well, okay, so I guess your approach, kathleen. It sounds like it's better to find out before you're further down the road it's time to turn around than it is to, you know, end up way down the road and just having to throw out hours and hours of research information.
Kathleen Brandt:I guess Well, yes, and we have a three genealogy. So I normally, if I was not just doing the podcast, I would have a whole team working on different angles at the same time. In Bruce's case, his hits might lead him to other brick walls, unless he just logs it, records it and moves to another couple. I know, based on the funeral record I have, that the guy really did go by Jack and Sarah. What we didn't know beforehand was was Jack Jackson or was he John, because these are wonderful nicknames for Jack from the beginning of time, pretty much. So, seeing that, I'm thinking we've already ruled out one couple that looked promising, with the right names in the right place. However, like I said, that court record proved them to be wrong. So I am going to give you some different sources and resources for you to look at. You're going to take each one. Take your time, have fun with it, because there are a lot of Jordans out there, oh Lord.
John Brandt:So you're going into next steps for Bruce. So this is what he's going to do next to start the redundant process of eliminating all of those Jordans. That's correct.
Kathleen Brandt:Well, all but one, I guess. I guess one couple left is what we're looking for. So I lit the GDNA and your DNA is exciting, but I let it be my lead. It's like where else can I look for, Bruce? I really like the Eastern Cherokee. Matter of fact, that's almost your only option at this point, based on our previous research. The Eastern Band of the Cherokee, Natoes, those are the ones that you're looking at.
Kathleen Brandt:But I didn't know something and I have to ask you this question. At one point you told me that you ruled out one, Jack Jordan, because of an age. But I don't remember what you told me. And while Bruce is pulling up that record, John, I just wanna make clear why I'm doing this. His James Jordan, the son of a Jack and Sarah. That guy says he's from Arkansas, and then we see Georgia and at one point we see Maryland or Massachusetts, one of the East Coast, and we do find other Jordans in the territory from Maryland, especially in Massachusetts. But I'm looking really closer to where we know he was. We know he went to Arkansas for them as a minor.
Bruce Gebbeken:That is because, I think, I think because he married Francis, his wife Francis, he went down to that territory, that area of Franklin County in Ozark. I went down there and researched it and I have on the nickel side I found maybe a hundred graves of nickels down there. So she is from that area and solidly from that area. So he traveled down, I guess, to be with her family for a while. Okay, I found that Alabama.
Kathleen Brandt:Oh, it was Alabama you found.
Bruce Gebbeken:Yes, the 1870 census of Alabama. There is a James on that census. The record is very close but the trial James J Jordan is in fact James Joshua Jordan and he died in Crawford, maclennan County, texas, in 1939.
Kathleen Brandt:And we did see him. Also. I should say that I also saw him there in James Joshua. So I'm gonna turn you to a different resource, the Nesta National Archives, which has a lot more information about the Eastern Band Cherokees. You will want to use that with your other databases, like Ancestry or if that's what you use. But once again I stumbled on a family I would say you might wanna start with, because they actually have a Jack Jordan at the right age in Georgia and in Arkansas and they report a Jack Jordan who disappeared in the Indian territory. And he's about the right age. He's somewhere between 1832 and 1835 born and all of these people applied for Native American application through the Eastern Cherokee under one man's name and that man is John Wyatt W-Y-A-T-T. He was 100% Native American and his daughter Anise actually did marry Nathaniel Jordan.
Kathleen Brandt:Having said that, I did a preliminary search there. Again, it's not proven. You'll need to go through pull documents. Lots of the children applied, a lot of John Wyatt's grandchildren with the last name Jordan applied, and they all named the same brothers and uncles and fathers. This Jack Jordan really intrigues me. But again, we have to pull all the records, which I did not have the time to do, but I'm gonna give you links on the National Archives so that you will see all the other sets of records, because they're federal records, right, and they applied way before the original Indian territory up in Oklahoma. They're through that because, say, the Georgia, arkansas, but most of them did talk about this one, jack Jordan, who went to the Indian territory. I did not go into decipher all of these records or the applications, so there's lots of paragraphs of information. That's just a good place to start and as you're working with the National Archives records, you might buy some others that you like there also.
John Brandt:When you're looking at those records, are they transcribed records or are you going in and looking at the actual physical copies?
Kathleen Brandt:The nice, wonderful handwriting which it is a records, but they are all legible. I mean, the ones I saw were all legible. Now, the reason I did like them, bruce, does not again mean much yet because we don't have the documentation to support. What's your DNA? Finally, your DNA was making a lot more sense. I think before I mentioned your DNA is not working out right. Well, these families have people like Duncan's and Richardson's and Danger. You match with all of them at the right level, about a fourth to fifth cousin. Because if John Wyatt was 100% just walking through something like that, his daughter would have been Anise Wyatt, who married Nathaniel Jordan, who had a Jack Jordan under him, born in around 1835, as I mentioned, there were lots of children at that point and that would have been about a 25%, meaning that you yourself will only have about 1.56% Native American. Unfortunately, because of your lovely mother, juanita, she would have had about 3.125% on this line, but, as you know, you have 25% Native American because of her other lines.
Bruce Gebbeken:Yes.
Kathleen Brandt:So when I look closer to her, I have to look at Claude. You want to take someone, one of your cousins, who is a descendant of Claude, but you want that person not to be tied to Juanita, who had a lot of Native American on her other lines though it have to be Claude.
Bruce Gebbeken:All of those relatives are, at Claude's level, passed away. Claude's brother, jesse, his granddaughter, is alive and she does genealogy, and I have her DNA.
Kathleen Brandt:So she also is only going to have like 1.56, which takes me to the next point.
Bruce Gebbeken:Her dad is still alive, Preston.
Kathleen Brandt:Oh well, we want Preston to take a test.
Bruce Gebbeken:We have his DNA, but I don't have it all broken out. Oh, that's fine.
Kathleen Brandt:So this is what I also need you to do. I know you all have been working with Ancestry. Do you have your DNA on any other test?
Bruce Gebbeken:No besides Ancestry.
Kathleen Brandt:That's correct.
Bruce Gebbeken:No.
Kathleen Brandt:So I am going to send you a sheet of paper giving you directions of how to spread your Ancestry results for free to family tree DNA and to my heritage. This will give you a bigger and a broader sample to work with. You need more cousins Now, all of your trees, everyone, even who started off with this John Wyatt and his daughter, anise Wyatt, jordan. They start mixing all of the families, so the trees are not going to be that great. If you're looking on your direct line, you're looking for someone who's related to the Wyats and you're trying to figure out how does John Wyatt or Anise Wyatt, his daughter who married the Jordan, how are they related? And who are the Richardson's, the Duncan's, the Stewart's and the Elrods? Now, the reason those names are important on this part is because in my first relook at this particular family, those were the names of the females that the Jordan being married. This is when we want the women's side, so normally we go around screaming the women are so hard, but they also can be our biggest key to finding the ancestors we're looking for. So you match with all of these women on Ancestry, but you need a bigger pool to prove it. So that's why I'm going to have you take.
Kathleen Brandt:I want you to take your raw data from Ancestry and share it on other company site and that larger pool are cousins and they're going to be cousins. You don't know, because who you're really looking for is a fourth cousin. That's going to give you the biggest hint and very few of us know our fourth cousins. Well, you don't have to know them personally, you just stick next to them and hopefully they don't have anything other than some great, strong matches with the surnames you're looking for. I did write out the surnames of this particular family that I liked, that I saw first, and it is because I went after Jack and I like I said I didn't look at Jackson's also, but I'm pretty sure it's Jack. At this point at least you have to have somewhere to start. So I'm saying, because the funeral director said Jack and Sarah, let's start with the Jack and Sarah who does show up in the Indian territory. Go ahead, you have a question. I can tell I hear your marbles working.
Bruce Gebbeken:Oh, the marbles are fading. I still got you know, I've still got the energy to go through Ancestry and stuff like that. And I have a daughter that's highly interested in this, another daughter who's a good twin, who introduced you to us. She's interested. And I have, of course, this cousin who's the daughter of Preston. Preston is the son of Jesse, who's a brother of Claude. Preston is we have his DNA.
Kathleen Brandt:So you do need his raw DNA, but you can get his raw DNA without you getting on to it. I'll send you the instructions on how she can download it and just email it to you. And you do want Preston's, because I'm hoping he only has a little bit of the Native American without your mother, who has a lot of Native American ancestry in general, but I do tend to think that the more that's out there, the better off everybody is.
Kathleen Brandt:Right, we use DNA to support the paper trail. I also use it to give me leads. That's how I found this group. I went through and I'm like, okay, I need some fourth cousins related to this guy. And that's how I found this particular John Wyatt in his descendants. And then I went to the National Archives and I pulled out lots of their applications that they all do mention Jack Jordan and, as I said, most of them said I think he went to Indian territory. One says we think he's dead.
Kathleen Brandt:Last scene was Oklahoma. And then there's also another Jack Jordan that I really liked from 1874. His particular obituaries in the paper in Georgia. Now, the reason I kind of liked the one I had that I'm been talking about is because not only was he from Georgia, his wife was from Arkansas. So we see them both and that's why I'm kind of gravitated toward that one instead of the other one. But I'm going to send you everything I have because again it's a process of elimination for you. I love to give you shortcut spruces. There are no such things in this kind of research.
Bruce Gebbeken:Sitting there going through Latter-day Saints Microfish has been the toughest.
Kathleen Brandt:Luckily for us, covid came along and they actually digitized almost 80 or 90% of their holdings. It's a large percentage. So we now can get those things from home and if you haven't tried that, I'll send you that information also.
Bruce Gebbeken:Yeah, I used to have relatives alive when I was in Jewish too, but it never got.
Kathleen Brandt:Yes, that's your next steps there, Bruce.
Bruce Gebbeken:Yeah, has this been one of the tougher ones?
Kathleen Brandt:Absolutely.
John Brandt:Yes, definitely, and not all of these end up as dinner conversations, bruce, but yours definitely did more than once, so Absolutely. Bruce, this has been a whole lot of fun. I appreciate you know you love this stuff as much as she does, I'm sure, but anybody who actually entertains my wife as well as you have for the last week or so gets high marks from me. She's thoroughly enjoyed the research. Thank you so much.
Kathleen Brandt:Thanks, bruce, you take care Enjoy.
Bruce Gebbeken:Thank you so much Okay enjoy.
John Brandt:Well, congratulations, you've made it to the end of another episode. Thanks so much for staying. Thanks to Bruce for sharing his questions with us. Thanks to Chewy Chewbacca Brandt, our part-time mailman repeller and full-time bringer of the boop, for his unwavering lack of interest in anything we're doing. The theme song for Hittin' the Bricks was written and performed by Tony Fisknuckle and the Tartigrades. Watch for their next appearance on Canary Row. You can find us on Apple, Spotify, YouTube and, of course, Buzzsprout. We'd love to hear what you think about the podcast, so stop by our Facebook page at Hittin' the Bricks and let us know.
