The Mystery of Cornelia Gray

Kathleen welcomes Angela Rodesky (of Delaware) to discuss a relative that is hiding behind a brick wall.  Who was Cornelia Grey and why was she so unwanted in the community where she lived?  Family folklore collides with data and research in this first episode of Hittin' the Bricks.  But Angela needs to be ready with a pencil.  As Kathleen always says, this is a Do it yourself (DIY) genealogy podcast. “Ill show you where the shovel is, but I'm not digging up your family.”

Links Mentioned in this episode:
The State Historical Society of Missouri - Cape Girardeau, https://shsmo.org/visit/cape-girardeau

Missouri Historical Society, St Louis, https://mohistory.org/society

Cape Girardeau County Archives, https://www.capecounty.us/archive-center/ 

Cape Girardeau Genealogical Society, https://www.capegenealogy.org/
 

Be sure to bookmark linktr.ee/hittinthebricks for your one stop access to Kathleen Brandt, the host of Hittin' the Bricks with Kathleen. And, visit us on YouTube: Off the Wall with Kathleen John and Chewey video recorded specials.

Hittin' the Bricks is produced through the not-for-profit, 501c3 TracingAncestors.org.

Transcript

00:00

John Brandt

Ladies and gentlemen, from the depths of flyover country adjacent to the Land of Oz, the Kansas City. On the other side of the mighty MO. Welcome to Hitting the Bricks with Kathleen. The genealogy show, the features, your questions and her answers. I am John, your humble hubby, host. And on this episode, Kathleen will be talking to Angie Rodesky from the great state of Delaware, also known as the Small Wonder, the Blue Hen State, the First State. But enough of my latest Google searches. Let's start hitting the bricks. 

Good morning. Let's do this, never again. Well, you were ready for 9:30, Angie.

Angie Rodesky

I was. That's how we are here in Delaware. We're ready to go.

John Brandt

Of course, Like that. Just hanging on to the whole First State.

Angie Rodesky

Yes. Oh, thank you for recognizing that. Many people don't.

John Brandt

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I did my research yesterday. I didn't know, I had to look up how to spell Delaware. It's New Year's Eve Day, right? Is that how you say it?

Kathleen Brandt

Yes, I think. I think it's just New Year's Eve.

John Brandt

But we're here with, of course, the brick hitter herself, Kathleen Brandt, and our very special guest, Angie Rodesky of Delaware, the First State.

Angie Rodesky

Thank you.

Kathleen Brandt

So, Angie, you submitted a question, and it was about Cornelia Josephine Harringburg, is that correct? Correct. Tell us a little bit more about Cornelia.

Angie Rodesky

We don't know a whole lot about her. She is my dad's great grandmother on his maternal side. And all that we know is her name was on some forms and some writings and communications back and forth. We hear Josephine Gray, we hear Cornelia Josephine Gray. We've even heard Cornelia, Emma, Josephine Gray in the research that I did. I just was focusing on Cornelia or Josephine Gray, because that's what appeared in a newspaper clipping that I found on where she married her husband, Charles Harringburg. The story that we've been told on her is sparse, I guess is the right word. There's a lot of holes in the story. Our understanding is that Charles met her while traveling south and going into Illinois to pick up something for his job. As to what his job was that required him to go there. There are thoughts that it had something to do with lumber and something to do with roadwork.

Nobody actually can verify, and I've not been able to verify exactly why he was traveling like he was. We do know that Charles family is German, very strong-willed German women. And when he came back with Cornelia, the family story is that she was not accepted into the family because she was either Creole, she was mulatto, or she was black. But we had, you know, those, those are like those stories that you hear in the family. You never know exactly what the truth is, because sometimes people will color it or shade it the way that they want it to be.

John Brandt

Kind of like my dad, who used to try and say we were related to the chancellor of Germany, William Brandt.

Kathleen Brandt

That's a whole other Story.

John Brandt

Family folklore.

Kathleen Brandt

Family folklore.

Angie Rodesky

That is the that's what I think caused a lot of problems in doing this and trying to break through this brick wall is like John just said, the family folklore is some of them make your ancestors look great and look good or you have you know, you have the other end.

Kathleen Brandt

In the black sheep of the family.

Angie Rodesky

Yes, exactly.

Kathleen Brandt

So let me ask you a few questions so we can get a clearer picture. One is you mentioned a newspaper clipping that you got where they got married, but you didn't tell us where they got married. Where was that?.

Angie Rodesky

It was in Cape Girardeau or Jackson. It was in Jackson, I believe is where it was that they got married. I found the clipping while I was doing research there in Cape Girardeau. When I went with my parents to go share some family stories or dig up some family stories.

Kathleen Brandt

And so for clarification, you are referring to Jackson in the county of Cape Girardeau, correct?

Angie Rodesky

I'm sorry. Yes, In Missouri. Mm hmm.

Kathleen Brandt

So we're talking Missouri here. And what's the time frame you're working with?

Angie Rodesky

She and Charles were married, and I think it was 1889. Okay. I do know that her time of birth, she was born in 1865 and she died in 1890. And the only reason we know this was because there was a headstone that was found in a farm field.

Kathleen Brandt

Okay. Angie, as far as you know, did they always live in Cape Girardeau?

Angie Rodesky

As far as I know. Yes.

Kathleen Brandt

When we're looking at this time frame between 1889.

Angie Rodesky

Correct.

Kathleen Brandt

And she was born in 1865. My question to you is your exact question. Who were her parents or is your question whether or not she was Creole or mulatto or black?

Angie Rodesky

My question is, who is her parents? And I say that because I believe once I find out who her parents are, I can fill in some of those other blanks as to in reference to maybe finding out her race and where she actually lived at and what she was doing. So, I think once I'm able to find those parents, it may answer some of those additional questions.

05:00

Angie Rodesky

But for you, for this brick wall, I'm focusing on who her parents are. Okay.

Kathleen Brandt

I want to add a couple things here, because the first thing I would ask any client is, have you taken a DNA? So, have you taken the DNA?

Angie Rodesky

Yes, my dad did.

Kathleen Brandt

Your dad took a DNA?

Angie Rodesky

My dad took the DNA.

Kathleen Brandt

He took a “Y” DNA. Or they taken out a autosomal DNA.

Angie Rodesky

I believe it was a Y DNA.

John Brandt

Okay, hang on. Hang on a second, because I've got a question. Yes. So there's DNA,? And then you're distinguishing between autosomal and I'm assuming the sex chromosome because you have the autosomal and you have the X, Y. What is the difference when you're asking that of Angie? Why is that important?

Kathleen Brandt

Well, because her dad's Y in this case would not solve her question because the Y DNA only follows the male trail. So, one of the things I'm looking for is to see if Angie or any of her first cousins have taken the out of somewhat DNA, which is 23 and Me or My Heritage or Ancestry.com, because that is the key to solving this issue with so little information.

John Brandt

And I'm sorry, one more and then I'll let you get back to it. Would her father taking an autosomal provide the same?

Kathleen Brandt

It would help also. And since he's already taken the Y, that tells me he's taken it on Family Tree DNA, which means we can still upgrade even if he is not around. And I don't know this scenario. We can upgrade his DNA to the autosomal family finder within the same company. So, Angie, this is I want to make sure. Have you taken a DNA? I have.

Angie Rodesky

Now I need to backtrack, because he did it on Ancestry. So, I'm assuming he took the autosomal.

Kathleen Brandt

If he took it in Ancestry in the last probably since 2010 or 12. Yes. It would be the autosomal if it was before its possibly a Y, but is still null and void.

Angie Rodesky

He took the autosomal.

Kathleen Brandt

Okay. Excellent. So, with his on a sample, which is good for at least five generations. Okay. We can at dinner fight the family. Now, you also mentioned this last name, Gray. Where does it come in? Is that her maiden name?

Angie Rodesky

That is her maiden name that we have.

Kathleen Brandt

And you actually have seen that on documents, is that correct?

John Brandt

So gray as Gre? or gra?

Angie Rodesky

It's a “A”.

Kathleen Brandt

Gray can be with it. E or an A, which and you need to keep in mind also because she needs to put a wildcard there. So when she's doing those searches, she should say, “GR” and then put a question mark. “Y” Because it could be either.

John Brandt

You're talking you're talking about in like a Google search?

Kathleen Brandt

Or a database search, like.

John Brandt

Database search.

Kathleen Brandt

In ancestry or Family Tree or any archival search.

John Brandt

Is it actually a question mark? Because I know in some it's an asterisk, but it's actually a question.

Kathleen Brandt

Okay. An asterisk is used for more than one letter. Asterisk is used for when we have several letters were missing. And so, we put an asterisk and then say, what? Pick up when you see the next “B” in “Harringburg”, that I used the asterisk.

John Brandt

Yeah, I'm a multimedia instructor, by the way, people, go ahead.

Kathleen Brandt

So, Angie, when we're talking about the DNA, I don't want to go deep in the woods, but as long as you all have the autosomal DNA done, which is the 23 and Me, My Heritage and Ancestry, any one of those, because we can also populate those two other companies, when we're talking about that, that's going to be your key. Because, you know, her maiden name was Gray. So, what we don't know is her ethnicity or her race. And when we're doing DNA, it also shares that information with us. We'll also be able to see your cousin matches further back. That's what we would look for in that DNA. Also, I can tell you that to me, this is not yet a brick wall. What it is, though, is a family who's working on folklore. Yes. And I'm sure there's a reason that they didn't like her. But let's talk about that a little bit more.

Angie Rodesky

Okay.

Kathleen Brandt

You mention that this is a very German-German family.

Angie Rodesky

Very strong German family. Now, they didn't have any of the baloney rings that they drove around with, as far as I know. But there was a strong German family.

Kathleen Brandt

So the baloney rings Angie happens to be teasing me because I come from, my parents come from Western Kansas, from a German territory near the Yoder, the Amish Mennonite territory. And baloney ring, a ring of baloney is a big thing out there. And on vacations, we always had our garlic ring of baloney that was made by a local and the local Germans, not from the grocery store in the little town called Nickerson, Kansas.

10:00

Kathleen Brandt

And we loved this because it was just part of our practice in Western Kansas. We all had it in and she is teasing me about that.

Angie Rodesky

Because I didn't know what Baloney Ring was. And that was something you and John discussing on your opening.

John Brandt

I had absolutely no idea what Ring baloney was when she said, we have to go get ring baloney. I have no idea. I know Oscar Meyer, baloney.

Kathleen Brandt

You all are so ornery.

Angie Rodesky

I seriously I have never heard of that before. And I moved here to Delaware and they had scrapple and I thought that was weird. But ring baloney.

John Brandt

What is. Oh, help me with scrapple.

Angie Rodesky

Scrapple, whatever is leftover in the meat processing facility.

John Brandt

Oh, okay.

Angie Rodesky

They just put it together in this little lard looking spam kind of cut out and people slice it really thin and fry it and eat it. Oh, it's.

John Brandt

Like head cheese.

Angie Rodesky

Oh, gosh, yes, I.

John Brandt

Know nothing about head cheese. Were it not for my wife.

Kathleen Brandt

That's because you all don't understand the importance of the German influence, especially in the Midwest, which is getting us back to the Harringburg family.

John Brandt

The spotlight a little bit too bright there, Kathleen, on your past. All right, let's get back to business. Yes.

Kathleen Brandt

So Cornelia , what was her husband's name?

Angie Rodesky

Charles.

Kathleen Brandt

Charles Harringburg. Charles Harringburg. They come from Cape Girardeau County, Missouri. Cape Girardeau County, Missouri, is part of the Rhineland of Missouri. Now, Missouri has a section not far off of the Mississippi River. Actually, Cape Girardeau, Missouri, is actually on the Mississippi River. But you said Jackson. So, a couple miles away, maybe 8 to 10 miles away from the river itself.

But this is a strong German community. I've done research on it and there's things on my blog that you can just go in and search on the blog for Rhineland, just put in Rhineland spelled just like it would be spelled in Germany.

Angie Rodesky

Okay, now I have a question. You're referring to Rhineland. I did not realize because, like you said in Germany, there is a Rhineland. Is Rhineland, is that a town? Is that an added name? Is that the name of the water layer?

John Brandt

Hang on a second.

Kathleen Brandt

Can Angie, are you frozen?

John Brandt

Yeah. Let's pause for a second. She'll probably dial back. And there we are. Hear me? Yes.

Angie Rodesky

Okay.

John Brandt

So we had our technical difficulties.

Kathleen Brandt

Okay, Now.

John Brandt

Straight to the highlights.

Kathleen Brandt

You asked me why is it called the Rhineland? The Rhineland area of Missouri is made up of 11 counties settled by the Germans. Okay. And you can find out more about it on my blog. I even have a map on my blog for you for that.

Angie Rodesky

Okay, Thank you. That clears that up. I wasn't sure.

Kathleen Brandt

The reason I brought it up is because you mentioned that this Gray woman was a outcast. And one of the reasons is she might just not have been German. You mention that you had a marriage record of Cornelia and Charles. Was she recorded as Creole or mulatto or white or black?

Angie Rodesky

She was never recorded as black, but I don't have a lot of actual vital records with that type of information that provides me that much detail.

Kathleen Brandt

Okay. So if she's saying that she is white from this, the census records or the marriage records, they all would have the race on them then she's already declared herself white. That would stop Charles, from introducing her as mulatto or black. So I don't know where that family folklore came from, But as I mentioned, the German community was not necessarily that welcoming to outsiders. So it could be any other history type that DNA will expose.

John Brandt

So again, the you're saying the autosomal is going to be one of the things that gives a clue as to whether she was mulatto and passed for white.

Kathleen Brandt

Yes, it would, because she would be matching at some point with a lot of other black people.

John Brandt

So why doesn't everybody just go out and get autosomal DNA tests?

Kathleen Brandt

They should. That should I? I can't hang a large a flag to say go get your a DNA tested. It helps us connect with all your family units and also your ancestry by building family trees, from that, we can go back generations and solve in this case. And her Harrinburg issue. So one of the things I mention is she wants to do her DNA and have it analyzed.

15:00

Kathleen Brandt

She might have to have it analyzed by a professional. But what you're looking for are the Grays in that family, in your other matches. You're also looking to see the ethnicity after other matches, and that might answer those two questions. The second thing you want is to learn that geography. If you really understand the Rhineland area, that might help you to see if there were Grays in the area or the community.

Kathleen Brandt

Don't worry about the race at this point. You're just looking for proximity. And I know you said that he went and got a wife and brought her back to the family. But there might be there's some family came back with her. The third thing I'm going to suggest you do is look at some of the great resources you have in Cape Girardeau County.

Kathleen Brandt

One would be the Cape Girardeau Genealogical Society. It used to be in the library there, but it has recently moved across from the courthouse. There is a Cape Girardeau County Archives. They're all in the same area. At the Cape Girardeau County Archives. There is a great guy there, a name named name Lyle Johnston, and he can help you, but there are other people who can assist you with this research.

They have a lot of family history, what we call vertical files, and those vertical files might assist in some of the stories and the information that you're looking for. Okay. Third [sic] fourth one would be the State Historical Society of Missouri. We have in Missouri seven branches of the State Historical Society. One of them is in Cape Girardeau. And there I've always worked with a guy by the name of Bill Hidlelman.

He is a wealth of knowledge, but all of his staff is great to all of the staff there, so you'll want to work with those three main areas. In Saint Louis. They have several places like the Missouri Historical Society, so it's actually two other places. Why don't I send those to you and those links so that all of our listeners can have some of these resources for their research also.

John Brandt

We'll post the links in the comments or in the description or something.

Kathleen Brandt

Angie, did you have any more questions.

Angie Rodesky

When doing research and you come across someone who has posted an image on Ancestry of where she is buried at. kAnd you know they only information, you know, if she's buried there, there's a sketchy picture of the headstone, but you don't have an exact location and you're unable to reach out to this individual to find out exactly where that image is at or where it came from. How do you break through that?

Kathleen Brandt

So, again, this local place as well maybe will identify it, especially that that where Lyle is with the Cape Girardeau County Archives and the Historical Society, if she was not in the local cemetery, she was probably on one of the farms. One of the biggest farms there is General Green's farm. So I don't know if I would start there or not, but there are few farms that are noted in that area to have tombstones on them.

Angie Rodesky

You were mentioning my dad taken the DNA test. The autosomal, and you asked about me taking it. So when I'm referring to my dad, this is not my biological father. He's still my dad, though, and he is no longer with us. So when looking to take DNA testing, I luckily have two brothers, which I assume if they were to take that test, I would still be able to collect that information. That's vital to get these answers. If I did not have brothers that could do that testing, what would be your recommendation moving forward, say, for someone else who's looking to do this.

Kathleen Brandt

Any blood relative. So, the autosomal test? It does not have to be a descendant. It went to a first cousin, a second cousin, Any blood relative.

Angie Rodesky

Male or female?

Kathleen Brandt

Male or female.

Angie Rodesky

Okay, perfect. Thank you.

John Brandt

That's a good question. 

Angie Rodesky

Thank you. 

John Brandt

Well, you're welcome.

Kathleen Brandt

Angie, thanks for joining Hittin’ the Bricks.

Angie Rodesky

Thank you.

Kathleen Brandt

I'm hoping that you will keep us informed of your findings. I'm interested myself.

John Brandt

Yeah. You got to let us know.

Angie Rodesky

I will. I will reach out to you guys and let you know what I learn so we can solve this mystery of who Cornelia Gray is.

John Brandt

Sounds like a good book. Maybe, the mystery of Cornelia Gray.

Kathleen Brandt

“Who is Cornelia Gray”.

John Brandt

Or the discovery of Cornelia Gray? Yeah. It was good seeing you again.

Angie Rodesky

It was good seeing you guys. This is fantastic, you guys. I love this. This concept.

Kathleen Brandt

I forgot to mention a very important part of. What's that at this? Cape Girardeau County is one of the largest named counties in the nation. Another one besides it, two north.

20:00

John Brandt

Oh, what is it? Wait a minute. Is there a Triple A book over there? You don't get extra credit.

Kathleen Brandt

Maryland has 14 letters. Cape Girardeau has 13. That makes it one of the top ones.

John Brandt

Well, congratulations listeners, you’ve made it to the end of another episode….Thanks so much for staying. We want to thank our guests, Angie Rodesky, for her questions and spending some time with us, but not screaming and running out of the room like I'm about to do. Thanks to Chewie, Chewbacca Brandt, our full-time squirrel chaser and part time editor for his unwavering lack of interest in anything we're doing.

John Brandt

The theme song for Hitting the Bricks is written and performed by Tony Fist Knuckle and the Aphids pick up their latest video album at your local Blockbuster. We'd love to hear what you think about the podcast, so stop by our Facebook page at a3genealogy and let us know. Anything else?

Kathleen Brandt

Blockbuster doesn’t exist.

End Transcription

Running Time 21:01

Posted to Buzzsprout, January 08, 2023